Improved Grab keeps killing PCs

[Lord Zardoz]

I mean, if I throw a CR par creature at the party, I shouldn't expect to kill a PC. I should expect a fairly easy fight.

When you say 'kill a PC', are you talking about having a PC dropped to the negatives or are you talking about needing a Raise Dead or new character?

Also, I generally define a CR 'par' creature to be a legitimate threat though not overwhelming, and not necesarily an easy fight. An easy fight is one where the monster is largely ineffective and the impact on the players is marginal. A CR appropriate fight should consume some spells, either from healing or from the fight its self.

In 4th Edition terms, I expect a CR appropriate fight to use up some combination of healing surges and require most of the encounter powers.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Hussar]

I say kill as in dead. If I meant negative, I would have said that.

An EL par encounter should not result in a dead PC. That's pretty much stated in the DMG and borne out by the rules. Unfortunately, because some grapple monsters have such insanely high grapple scores, they become auto-wins for grappling. If you make the mistake of using a small number of them, say, 1 per PC, you can easily kill a PC, even though, eyeballing the system, you shouldn't.

I do not consider a dead PC to be a reasonable assumption to make for an EL par encounter. If that's true, then you should be killing PC's almost every encounter. An EL par encounter should cost some resources, true, but, not a dead PC.

But, like I said, it would be a good idea for there to have been a sidebar somewhere in the MM or DMG stating that certain abilities really play merry hell with the CR/EL system assumptions.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But, like I said, it would be a good idea for there to have been a sidebar somewhere in the MM or DMG stating that certain abilities really play merry hell with the CR/EL system assumptions.

If they had know that then already. Maybe Pathfinder can fix this, too, giving special advice for Save or Die and Grapple monsters on how to use them without breaking anything and giving some sense of fairness to their PCs. ("You know guys, there were 20 petrified people - in various states of agony or combat - on your road to the Medusa. And then there was this guy telling about a terrifying, snake headed creature... I really expected you to pick up the clue and consider that you might need some Stone to Flesh spells...")

 

[Hussar]

Honestly M.R. I think a combination of the two is a good idea. The whole "medusa are really bad housekeepers" thing bothers me personally. Medusa aren't stupid. They are likely going to go clean up their mess, so, finding inconvenient statuary every time you meet a medusa isn't the answer IMO.

I'd rather go with a sort of 3 strike method for SoD effects. Save or suck, save or suck, save or die! which, to me, just adds a lot more tactical options. Same goes for Grapple monsters. Having a behir (CR 8) with a grapple of +25 means that it's pretty much autowin against any 8th level PC that isn't laser focused on grappling. Base attack bonus of +9 means by the end of the second round, he's done three rake attacks (1 in the first grapple, 2 in the second round) and obliterated all but the hardiest PC. ((Roughly 60 points of damage per grapple X 3 grapples=dead PC))

That's not a good thing.

I really do like the idea of rider effects or borrowing from Bo9S. Behir grapples, initiates some maneuver for a whole lot of damage, but the PC isn't helpless the next round. Maybe just lots of penalties or whatnot.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

To be honest, I've never had a serious problem with grappling and monsters with improved grab.

Yes, there are some monsters that are virtually assured to win grapple checks against PCs. But hey, that's their shtick.

Remember, the PCs usually outnumber the big 'ol nasty grapplers so the monster is (usually) focusing all its attacks on the person grappling while the rest of the PCs are dealing out damage to try to kill it and save their comrade. For me, that makes sense and is part of the combat dynamic.

What a DM needs to be careful about is swarming the PCs with multiple monsters that all have excellent grapple checks. Then it becomes overkill. But that's more about being a proficient DM who can gauge battles accordingly than about the grappling rules not working.

 

[Vegepygmy]

To be honest, I've never had a serious problem with grappling and monsters with improved grab.

Same here. I find it's like any other special power or ability; you have to use different tactics when dealing with a Big Grappler, and some players aren't so good at that.