LightPhoenix
First Post
Basically, I was wondering what level you would assign to a Magic Missle that did d6, d8, and even possibly d10 damage. Personally I'm thinking 4th, 7th, and Epic, but I want to get other people's opinions.
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Improved Magic Missle - Help Assigning Level
- Thread starter LightPhoenix
- Start date
Happiest_Sadist
First Post
Use however many empowers you'd need to get the new damage.
Each empower adds either 1 or 2 damage (50% chance3 of either). So say its 1.5.
So 2 levels of spell gives you 1.5 points of damage.
Each increase of die size gives you an increase of 1 pt of damage (up to d12)
So to find out take 1+(# of die increases)*4/3 to get the new level.
d6 : 2 1/3, round up to 3rd level
d8 : 3 2/3, round up to 4th level
d10: 5 th level
d12: 6 1/3, round up to 7th level.
Each empower adds either 1 or 2 damage (50% chance3 of either). So say its 1.5.
So 2 levels of spell gives you 1.5 points of damage.
Each increase of die size gives you an increase of 1 pt of damage (up to d12)
So to find out take 1+(# of die increases)*4/3 to get the new level.
d6 : 2 1/3, round up to 3rd level
d8 : 3 2/3, round up to 4th level
d10: 5 th level
d12: 6 1/3, round up to 7th level.
Last edited:
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
A system that seems to work well is to figure out how many levels of metamagic would be needed to make the spell you want, and then halve that number.
This may sound generous, but its not, really. For example, a delayed blast fireball has a better save than a fireball (as if heightened +4), gets the delay feat from T&B (+3), and the enhance spell feat from the epic level handbook (+4). What would take 11 levels of metamagic to do can be done with researching a spell a mere 4 levels higher than the base spell.
You'll want to be cautious with Magic Missile- it is pretty powerful for a 1st level spell, so you might want to research improvements on it as if were 2nd level.
Since 2-5 is about the same as 1d6, and since 2nd level spells normally cap out at 10th level (we're being cautious, remember, and want to treat MM as a 2nd level spell), two empowers and half an enhance spell.... divide by two...
I would say that a 5th level spell that did 5 missiles at 9th level, and 1 more missile every two levels thereafter (to a maximum of 8 missiles at 15th level) would be balanced if each missile did 2d6 damage. A 7th level spell that did up to 10 missiles (at 19th level) worth 3d6 hp each would also be reasonable, I think.
This may sound generous, but its not, really. For example, a delayed blast fireball has a better save than a fireball (as if heightened +4), gets the delay feat from T&B (+3), and the enhance spell feat from the epic level handbook (+4). What would take 11 levels of metamagic to do can be done with researching a spell a mere 4 levels higher than the base spell.
You'll want to be cautious with Magic Missile- it is pretty powerful for a 1st level spell, so you might want to research improvements on it as if were 2nd level.
Since 2-5 is about the same as 1d6, and since 2nd level spells normally cap out at 10th level (we're being cautious, remember, and want to treat MM as a 2nd level spell), two empowers and half an enhance spell.... divide by two...
I would say that a 5th level spell that did 5 missiles at 9th level, and 1 more missile every two levels thereafter (to a maximum of 8 missiles at 15th level) would be balanced if each missile did 2d6 damage. A 7th level spell that did up to 10 missiles (at 19th level) worth 3d6 hp each would also be reasonable, I think.
Alternative Magic System
I've developed an alternative magic system that improves wizards spellcasting. You can use it to make reasonable modifications to existing spells.
---
Any spell may be cast as a higher level spell to gain a +1 bonus to any die or modification.
So, a 1st level magic missile, cast as a 9th level spell could gain an extra +9 points of damage.
A fireball could do an extra +9 points of damage, or have a +9 penalty to an opponents save. Or, +4 points of damage and +5 pentalty to save, etc.
, etc.
Duration can also be extended. Where the standard unit is in minutes, its an extra 9 minutes for a 9th 1st level spell. Where the standard spell duration is a multiple of hours, its an extra hour. It's the dm's call when it comes to duration modification.
Extrapolate from there.
This makes it reasonable for a wizard to memorise/cast more lower level spells giving additional flexability.
---
An additional ruling: any higher level memorised spell can be junked and used as a standard lower level spell that you have memorised.
So, you might have delayed blast fireball, but NEED teleport. You've got teleport already memorised, but you know you need to use teleport twice, so u junk the higher level spell and use that slot to cast teleport. If you had already used your lower level teleport spell, well, sorry.
Note: Using delayed blast fireball to cast magic missle is different to memorising a 7th level magic missile spell which gets +7 points to distribute.
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If, by any chance, I manage to get thru to a l8r round in the settings search, . . . i'll hope to put that magic ruling in there.
Simple and effective. Doesnt play havoc with the spell memorisation and gives the flexability of a spell "point" system.
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I may or may-not require the wizard to have a Spell Mastery meta-magic feat before one might be able to do such meta modifications to their spells.
-Tim
I've developed an alternative magic system that improves wizards spellcasting. You can use it to make reasonable modifications to existing spells.
---
Any spell may be cast as a higher level spell to gain a +1 bonus to any die or modification.
So, a 1st level magic missile, cast as a 9th level spell could gain an extra +9 points of damage.
A fireball could do an extra +9 points of damage, or have a +9 penalty to an opponents save. Or, +4 points of damage and +5 pentalty to save, etc.
, etc.
Duration can also be extended. Where the standard unit is in minutes, its an extra 9 minutes for a 9th 1st level spell. Where the standard spell duration is a multiple of hours, its an extra hour. It's the dm's call when it comes to duration modification.
Extrapolate from there.
This makes it reasonable for a wizard to memorise/cast more lower level spells giving additional flexability.
---
An additional ruling: any higher level memorised spell can be junked and used as a standard lower level spell that you have memorised.
So, you might have delayed blast fireball, but NEED teleport. You've got teleport already memorised, but you know you need to use teleport twice, so u junk the higher level spell and use that slot to cast teleport. If you had already used your lower level teleport spell, well, sorry.
Note: Using delayed blast fireball to cast magic missle is different to memorising a 7th level magic missile spell which gets +7 points to distribute.
---
If, by any chance, I manage to get thru to a l8r round in the settings search, . . . i'll hope to put that magic ruling in there.
Simple and effective. Doesnt play havoc with the spell memorisation and gives the flexability of a spell "point" system.
---
I may or may-not require the wizard to have a Spell Mastery meta-magic feat before one might be able to do such meta modifications to their spells.
-Tim
LightPhoenix
First Post
Anubis said:
Do you mean me, or Trix?
I'm not sold on the Empower idea - I don't think it takes into account some factors. It's a good starting point though, admittedly.
Cheiromancer
Adventurer
I think he meant Trix.
And I understand the concern about Empower. Too many of them make my rule of thumb break down.
What do you think of the 5th and 7th level versions I proposed?
And I understand the concern about Empower. Too many of them make my rule of thumb break down.
What do you think of the 5th and 7th level versions I proposed?
It depends upon a few things...
one, how many missles will you get...
(two) ...and when (what level?)
three, will shield still stop them?
I would say that empower is a nice gauge to measure by, but a spell empowered to level X is generally less powerful than a natural level X spell.
A double empowered Fireball is less powerful than a DBF.
So, a d6 migic missle would be level 1 if you add a reflex (half) save. This from the list of alternative spells from the WOTC web site. (Arcane bolt?)
I would do level 3 MM that did d6 damage, still effected by the shield spell, with one extra missle (i.e. min 2...max 5 missles)
I would make it level 5 for d8+1, increase the number of missles by 1 maximum.
g!
one, how many missles will you get...
(two) ...and when (what level?)
three, will shield still stop them?
I would say that empower is a nice gauge to measure by, but a spell empowered to level X is generally less powerful than a natural level X spell.
A double empowered Fireball is less powerful than a DBF.
So, a d6 migic missle would be level 1 if you add a reflex (half) save. This from the list of alternative spells from the WOTC web site. (Arcane bolt?)
I would do level 3 MM that did d6 damage, still effected by the shield spell, with one extra missle (i.e. min 2...max 5 missles)
I would make it level 5 for d8+1, increase the number of missles by 1 maximum.
g!
phoamslinger
Explorer
I've used my own version of Magic Missile II and III for years, and they've worked out ok.
Magic Missile II
2nd level
same as MM, except does 1d6+1 per 3 levels, max 5d6+5 at 15th.
Magic Missile III
3rd level
same as MM, except does 1d8+1 per 4 levels, max 5d8+5 at 20th.
the auto hit nature of the missiles combined with the lack of saves made them worthwhile, even at high level. but they weren't overpowering either.
Magic Missile II
2nd level
same as MM, except does 1d6+1 per 3 levels, max 5d6+5 at 15th.
Magic Missile III
3rd level
same as MM, except does 1d8+1 per 4 levels, max 5d8+5 at 20th.
the auto hit nature of the missiles combined with the lack of saves made them worthwhile, even at high level. but they weren't overpowering either.
phoamslinger said:I've used my own version of Magic Missile II and III for years, and they've worked out ok.
Magic Missile II
2nd level
same as MM, except does 1d6+1 per 3 levels, max 5d6+5 at 15th.
Magic Missile III
3rd level
same as MM, except does 1d8+1 per 4 levels, max 5d8+5 at 20th.
the auto hit nature of the missiles combined with the lack of saves made them worthwhile, even at high level. but they weren't overpowering either.
Until you get to level 12 or 13, these spells are worse than Magic Missile for average damage. The "per x levels" progression is quite poor.
