Improved Magic Missle - Help Assigning Level

[trix]

...

You just doubled the power of spellcasters by making them impossibly versatile. VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA. Spellcasters are already a lot more powerful than warriors, so making them even moreso is a bad idea.

Well... not really. If you're directly refering to the using of a memorised higherlevel spell of type A as lowerlevel spell of memorised type B, then yes. That increases the strength of wizards.


If you're refering to the +X points to allocate about dice n stuff.

Well, you're wrong there.

I'll tell you why:

In this thread, you've got a player (or dm) creating a higher level magic missile spell. Now, you've got magic missiles doing 1d8 and 1d10... instead of 1d4.

I mean... c'mon. Then you might aswell adjust 3rd level fireball to become 9th level and have it do Xd12 instead of Xd6.

Then u might also go for lightning bolt and make a 9th level version of it, aswell, and have it do Xd12 instead of whatever it does normally.

I mean... whats the point of all these custom spells.

A simple generic method of making a significantly higher level spell out of a weaker one is to take the level increase in points, and distribute them as modifiers to damage or save penalties or AC benifit provided, or duration.

Very simple.

A 9th level magic missle would do 1d4+9 (if its origionally 1d4).

Now, yes, the average is higher than the origionally mentioned 1d10 that LightPhoenix was thinking was suitable for epic...

but c'mon. even 1d4+9 for a 9th level spell... home of Wish and probably other stuff that does in the region of 100 points of damage. I dont see a problem with that.


I would obviously require the player to research the new spell before the player could cast it. Simple "upgrades" of spells would be cheaper and quicker to research than researching a whole new spell.


Realise, that a 9th level fireball which would do something like 10d6 (what does it do?) +6 ( because its 6 levels higher than 3).

Now, realise that +6 do damage is like an extra dice. Its probably statisticly better to have the +6 to be applied to save penalty instead of damage.

Or +3 to save penalty and +3 to radius (where in this case +3 would translate to +3 5' blocks, so its +15' radius.)


+30' radius would be quite a good 9th level war spell... for battlefields n stuff.

(but there is probably better stuff?)

-Tim







1d12 that


d6, d8, and even possibly d10 damage. Personally I'm thinking 4th, 7th, and Epic

 

[Guilt Puppy]

I would say that a 5th level spell that did 5 missiles at 9th level, and 1 more missile every two levels thereafter (to a maximum of 8 missiles at 15th level) would be balanced if each missile did 2d6 damage. A 7th level spell that did up to 10 missiles (at 19th level) worth 3d6 hp each would also be reasonable, I think.

10d6 for a ninth level caster seems like just a little too much, considering the lack of save.

A Cone of Cold does 9d6 damage for a ninth level caster, and in an area. That's less damage, but it can do it to multiple targets. And there's the Save. Let's compare aspects of the two spells:

Damage against one target: MM wins
Damage against multiple targets: Cone of Cold wins
Probability of damage: MM wins
Range of attack: MM wins

So Cone of Cold wins on multiple targeting alone. And that's not as big a victory as you might think: True, you can deal more total damage in the right circumstances, but you can distribute your damage with much more versatility using the magic missile. Really, it's not enough to negate the other three factors where Magic Missile wins out. And that's ignoring some more minor things, like the ratio of creatures/characters with cold resistance to those with some way to stop a Magic Missile.

If it's a better damage spell than the PHB's best 5th-level massive damage spell, it's probably too powerful.

Anyway, in response to the original question: I'd say just increase the die type on a one-to-two basis with spell level, increasing the maximum number of missiles by one each time as well.

Magic Missile II: 1d6+1 per missile, max 6 missiles, Third level
Magic Missile III: 1d8+1 per missile, max 7 missiles, Fifth level
Magic Missile IV: 1d10+1 per missile, max 8 missiles, Seventh level
Magic Missive V: 1d12+1 per missile, max 9 missiles, Ninth level

If 9d12+9 (average 67.5) damage doesn't seem like a lot at 17th level, just keep repeating one word to yourself: "Auto-hit, auto-hit..." Take a Hezrou, SR 23... At 17th level, that's a die roll of 6 or above to beat SR -- 75% chance of killing it with one spell (assuming average damage or better, which isn't entirely a fair assumption)... Granted, that's only a CR 14, and that is a ninth-level spell... You could use Power Word, Kill to equal effect, but that's at a much closer range than MMV's comfy 270 foot distance. So it's not really more powerful than existing spells, just about as powerful.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Well, a double-empowered Magic Missile is 5th level, and it does 35 hp of damage- same as 10d6. Heck, each missile does the same amount of damage, on average as a 2d6 missile.

Double-empowering doesn't raise the level cap, but researching a new 5th level spell should give you a better spell than applying metamagic feats to a low level spell.

 

[da chicken]

You know, there is a conversion for Mordenkainen's force missles on WotC's web site <HERE>

For the lazy, here's a cut-and-paste:

Mordenkainen's Force Missiles
Evocation [Force]
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Targets: Up to four creatures, no two of which can be more than 20 ft. apart
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None or Reflex half (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a powerful missile of magical force, which darts from your fingertips and unerringly strikes its target, dealing 2d6 points of damage. The missile then bursts in a 5-foot blast of force that inflicts half this amount of damage to any creatures in the area (other than the primary target). The primary target is not entitled to a saving throw against the burst, but creatures affected by the burst may attempt a Reflex save for half damage.

If the missiles' burst areas overlap, secondary targets make only one saving throw attempt (and only one SR check, if applicable). A character can be struck by one missile (or more) and also be caught in the burst of another missile. In such a case, the character may attempt a Reflex save to halve the burst damage, and SR might apply.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee or has anything less than total cover or concealment. A caster cannot single out specific parts of a creature. The spell can target and damage unattended objects.

For every five caster levels, the caster gains one missile. A caster has two missiles at 9th level or lower, three missiles from 10th to 14th level, and four missiles at 15th level or higher. A caster can make more than one missile strike a single target, if desired. However, the caster must designate targets before rolling for SR or damage.

 

[gamecat]

You just doubled the power of spellcasters by making them impossibly versatile. VERY VERY VERY BAD IDEA. Spellcasters are already a lot more powerful than warriors, so making them even moreso is a bad idea.

Anubis, DUDE, TAKE IT EASY...

 

[jgbrowning]

metamagic feats

i dont think applying them to determine a new spells level is a truism, but they can be useful.

ex. empowered MM is a 3rd level spell. if you want to make a spell that does the same damage and is 3rd level theres one big difference.

one of those spells required a FEAT to cast.
the other doesn't.

Which one do you think is more powerful?

joe b.

 

[Marshall]

You know, there is a conversion for Mordenkainen's force missles on WotC's web site

What a horrible excuse for a spell! 8d6 at 15th level!?! phttt!!

 

[da chicken]

What a horrible excuse for a spell! 8d6 at 15th level!?! phttt!!

It has no save. That makes it equivalent to 16d6.