Improved Trip Feat question

[Arkhandus]

AoO's come at the same time as the action that provokes them. They do not interrupt or prevent the action, unless specifically stated (i.e. the Stand Still psionic feat specifically says that it interrupts the foe's movement and prevents it if the AoO and opposed Strength check succeed). A spell being cast is simply interrupted by a successful AoO because it disrupts the chanting and gestures - think about it, if some guy just slammed a quarterstaff across your jaw, would you be able to keep your hands steady and your mouth still chanting coherantly at that exact moment? No, your speech will either be paused or interrupted by a yelp or grunt of pain, and your hands will likely clench reflexively from the blow, disrupting the intricate spell gesture sequence. That is why spells are interrupted by an AoO that successfully damages you, the AoO itself doesn't stop it.

Likewise, if you're tripped by an AoO that was provoked by you standing up from a prone position, you were already halfway standing when opponent noticed and swung their weapon during your moment of vulnerability. If the trip succeeds, you end up on your backside again, but your standing motion is only interrupted because you now have to start over at getting up, in which case you might take another move-equivalent action to do so, but your current move-equivalent action is already more than half-expended. If the AoO had been just a regular attack rather than specifically a trip attempt, you would have still stood up fully afterwards with the same action, you just would've suffered a blow as you were getting up, but not necessarily an unbalancing one that would knock you back down like a trip. The opponent shouldn't get a +4 for attacking you prone, because you were already starting to get up and regain your mobility, at least in my opinion.

Also, note that any given creature can only take 1 attack of opportunity per round against any particular foe. If you try to stand once and are tripped in the process, your second attempt that round will not provoke an AoO from the same opponent who just made an AoO against you.

 

[Thanee]

It makes sense to either get the bonus for prone AND then have the target stand even after a trip AoO (AoO happens right before the action is resolved), or otherwise don't give the bonus AND then have the move action wasted, because of the trip (if successful, of course), altho another move action could be used immediately thereafter (AoO happens during the resolve of the action).

Bye
Thanee

 

[pingpong]

Also, note that any given creature can only take 1 attack of opportunity per round against any particular foe. If you try to stand once and are tripped in the process, your second attempt that round will not provoke an AoO from the same opponent who just made an AoO against you.

from the SRD:

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

 

[Arkhandus]

Alright, sorry 'bout that, didn't know 3.5 made Combat Reflexes that overpoweringly potent. At least it wasn't possible in 3.0.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Alright, sorry 'bout that, didn't know 3.5 made Combat Reflexes that overpoweringly potent. At least it wasn't possible in 3.0.

Just pointing out that Monte Cook always said it worked that way in 3.0 and if you read the appropriate sections of the rules that is what it said.

This, at least, isn't even a rules change of 3.5 - it's a clarification. Skip Williams and Monte Cook never did agree on what those rather unclear sections of the rules were supposed to mean - but since one of the authors said it worked just like it unambiguously does in 3.5 - we can hardly get all put out over this as a rules change.It simply isn't one.

-Frank

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, Combat Reflexes never made much sense the way it was usually interpreted in 3.0. 3.5 version is much better.

Bye
Thanee

 

[kreynolds]

...didn't know 3.5 made Combat Reflexes that overpoweringly potent.

It's not overpowered. It just initially seems that way when you're wrong. Trust me.

Besides, it makes for some cool imagery. In the last session I ran, the fighter/rogue was combating a drow two-weapon fighter of equal level. The drow disarmed her, then tripped her. So, there she is, on her butt after being tripped. She picks up her weapon, AoO, stands, AoO, then the drow's turn. That poor sucker didn't hit her with either AoO, and then missed all eight of his swings in his full attack. It was a cool scene.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The rules state the same action can't provoke multiple AoO from the same critter, but I'd have to take these as 2 seperate actions.[/b]

They are definitely two separate actions, and both provoke AoOs.

Leaving multiple threatened squares only provokes a single AoO, even if you use two Move actions, but the AoO for standing up doesn't fall under this exception.

Also note that 3.0 Shield would prevent this problem, since it provides cover, and cover prevents AoO...

Well, not really. The Main FAQ stated that "The description of the Shield spell is erroneous", and went on to clarify that it provides a Cover bonus to AC, but does not provide actual cover.

If they hadn't included the first line, I might have argued that the FAQ was misinterpreting the spell. But since they open with, essentially, "ignore what the spell says", I'm content to accept it as an erratum.

-Hyp.

 

[Tellerve]

I'm fine with getting up causing the AoO. And if the person standing over them wants to kick them in the side, fine, but they get up. If they want to trip them as they are getting up then there is a possibility that they get their feet/hands knocked out and loose their balance and hence are tripped prone again.

The question I'd have though is if the person has Improved trip, would they get an extra attack after that trip? Assuming at the highest bab right...that's what the AoO is at right?

Tellerve

 

[FrankTrollman]

I'm fine with getting up causing the AoO.

I'm actually not. The one time I actually got up from a prone position in a life-or-death confrontation I am pretty sure that I didn't provoke an attack of opportunity for doing so. Since I was at that time surrounded by six skinheads with knives and rocks - I'm fairly positive that if I had provoked an AoO from them all I'd be dead.

From a realism standpoint it simply doesn't mesh with my personal experience. From a game balance standpoint I remain unconvinced that Knockdown Fighters deserve an additional attack of opportunity on everyone they ever hit - a simple +4 to-hit on iterative attacks and a +4 to-hit for your flanking associates and a negation of an enemy MEA is more than enough to justify the feat chain for a high-strength character.

There's simply no reason for standing up to provoke an AoO in the first place. Once neither realism nor game balance nor legacy supports something it shouldn't be in the game.

-Frank