Improved Trip Feat question

[ruleslawyer]

Interesting point. I do have to wonder, though; you really were within the "threat range" of six guys with weapons and managed to get up without being whacked and without using some sort of martial arts stand technique? That does surprise me. From a game balance perspective, I do agree that standing up shouldn't provoke an AoO. IMHO, the fact that standing sucks up an MEA is bad enough. It seems to me that a trained, armed fighter should be able to stand without creating an opening that wasn't there to begin with, which is what AoOs represent.

 

[Tellerve]

Frank- I have to disagree, and obviously I'm sure we'll stay that way. I'd count yourself amazingly lucky your not dead, if it was as bad as you say. In all the fights I've seen with guy A on the ground and guy b above, he usually just starts kicking the pez outta him. Add guy c,d,e,f and that guy A is in ICU.

In movies, besides kip ups, the person usually is kicked in the ribs and sent rolling away and the bad guy doesn't follow, which allows the hero to get up. Sometimes bad guy kicks him several times and hero rolls off a ledge and manages to get back up. Or bad guy does one of his long speeches and doesn't pay attention or neglects to use that AoO. Either case, it makes tons of sense to me that as per standard rules being on the ground is very very bad. I'm fine with a feat, Improved Get the Heck Up or whatever, that could make it non-provoking MEA, or as I've said before a DC 20 tumble check. Or another option a friend of mine said was to use a standard action that doesn't provoke an AoO. It has all been argued a ton, and to my knowledge to no great surprise a "solution" hasn't come to light.

Tellerve

 

[FrankTrollman]

In all the fights I've seen with guy A on the ground and guy b above, he usually just starts kicking the pez outta him.

This is modeled by people getting a +4 bonus to hit people on the ground - not by people getting extra attacks while people are trying to stand up.

As is, in 3.5 you are often simply better off from a defensive standpoint staying on the ground (and for example: casting magic). That's wrong. And from my experience, the only time it is ever to your advantage to stay on the ground is if you can pull an enemy on top of you to use as cover from his friends - and that effect is modeled quite well by grappling and cover.

-Frank

 

[Darklone]

Being on the ground may even be an advantage if you're a silly capoeira fighter

 

[Deset Gled]

From a game balance standpoint I remain unconvinced that Knockdown Fighters deserve an additional attack of opportunity on everyone they ever hit - a simple +4 to-hit on iterative attacks and a +4 to-hit for your flanking associates and a negation of an enemy MEA is more than enough to justify the feat chain for a high-strength character.

IME, tripping was pretty underpowered in 3.0. The only people who could get it to work were heavily min/maxed strength players, who were forced to be fighters to get enough bonus feats to complete the chain without nerfing themselves in every other aspect. Even when it did work, the net effect was that the enemy would only get a single attack against the tripper on the next round, instead of a full attack.

The way things are set up now, it's still difficult to trip many monsters, but fairly easy against NPCs. As mentioned by others, a lot of NPCs can still be quite a bother even if they are lying on the ground (casters going on defensive, fighters tripping back, etc). I think it comes down to a matter of annoyance, not balance.

 

[Tellerve]

Frank-

What really needs to be addressed is the fact that we say, "well in real life" and that kinda logic should just not be followed through to conclusion 'cause it doesn't fall in line with the rules.

Tellerve

 

[MarauderX]

The question I'd have though is if the person has Improved trip, would they get an extra attack after that trip?

Tellerve

With Improved Trip, yes.

And FrankTrollman, I also have to disagree with the fight situation. I can't tell you how many times I have clobbered or been clobbered in a contact martial arts class from standing up. And I gotta say from the fights I have been unfortunate to have been in I have had the opportunity to get a shot in if I wanted while my 'opponent' was standing up only to back off or let the punk run out the door.

I agree with the AoO from standing from prone, but I also think there has to be more options such as roll away to stand, or a balance skill check as an opposed check versus the AoO instead of AC, or something.