improving Second Wind (Forked Thread: House Rule: Second Effort)

[77IM]

Maybe that use of the Heal skill should allow you to move your speed as part of the check, or be a minor action that you can't take on a turn when you attack. The recipient gets his normal turn. Or something -- I find that use of Heal to be extremely useful, but kind of awkward in how it works (like, if your ally has already second winded you can't heal him that way?).

-- 77IM

 

[Nifft]

In my experience, only Dwarves use Second Wind with any frequency.
This is a big clue: the Standard action is just too painful to part with.

IMHO Second Wind ought to be a Move action, but to compensate, it gives no +2 bonus to defenses.

I'm going to try this next time I run a one-shot.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

I'd say make it a minor action, remove the +2 defenses, and give dwarves +2 defenses when they second wind. Maybe a little something more, but I'm not sure they need it.

 

[77IM]

Making it a minor action with no consequence is effectively the same as giving everyone +25% hit points.

I like the move action idea, although it may encourage people to stand still (I think the game plays better when people run all around).

-- 77IM

 

[Nifft]

I like the move action idea, although it may encourage people to stand still (I think the game plays better when people run all around).

Yeah, but I figured that Second Wind was your declaration that you were purposely going to stand and take it, rather than trying to get away from whatever trouble you were facing right then.

That, and there are some effects (and Paragon Paths) that grant you a bonus Move action, so you'll get some motivation to take one of those instead of something that nabs you yet another damage bonus.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FireLance]

How about the idea of improving second wind by combining it with a riposte? After you take the second wind action, as an immediate reaction, you may make a melee or ranged basic attack against an enemy who attacks you before the start of your next turn.

If the DM decides to have the monsters avoid attacking you, second wind becomes even more defensive. If the DM decides that the monsters attack you anyway, you get to make a basic attack.

I wonder if it would be overpowered for dwarves, though.

 

[KarinsDad]

KD, you of all people advocating not a minmaxer's approach to evaluating a feature?!

In short, whether SW is great compared to previous editions is less relevant than whether it's obsolete compared to Healing Word and other powers...

It might be less relevant, but it is something people should not totally disregard.

No doubt. Healing Word is better. It should be. It doesn't make SW obsolete. That's way too strong of a word. Tell that to the players of PCs that have been saved from unconsciousness or death because they used their Second Wind.

One of the best Dwarven features is the ability to second wind and to attack in the same round. Giving that ability to all PCs obsoletes Dwarves.

 

[keterys]

Making it a minor action with no consequence is effectively the same as giving everyone +25% hit points.

Is it? I'm pretty used to people gaming healing surges to take with a maximized bonus to the roll, myself... I mean, use a healing surge with no bonus as a minor action, or get a healing surge + 50% from someone else's minor action? What a decision.

Or better yet, as someone's immediate reaction _and_ someone else's surge? Or with a healing banner up and song of rest going so that it heals everyone in the group at the same time and is a huge bonus? Or a shaman's side effect healing, so it's no surges at all...

Yeah, not really seeing that the same way.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thanks for your suggestions, but most are a wee bit too radical in my mind.

Turning SW into a minor action would completely make its use a no-brainer. (Not that you'd use it a.s.a.p. - Keterys argument is still valid - but it completely removes the "I don't get to attack" angst which I feel should stay in the game). Basically, it would transform Second Wind into something else. (Not worse, but... different)


The "two heals at the price of two surges" suggestion seems to be the best suggestion, so far. A moderate boost that doesn't change the game more than necessary.

In fact, how about this:

Second Wind allows you to spend any number of healing surges (just like for a short rest).

I mean, if you allow two, you could as well simplify the rule to allow any number. With the understanding you would still not automatically choose to spend all four (needed to get back to maximum hp) because of the lower effeciency (you don't get any bonus hp as with Healing Word, after all).

Zapp

PS. Thanks daHeadRat, I'll check it out!

 

[SigmaX0]

I'm currently in a campaign with 3 PCs, a wand wizard, great weapon fighter and me, a TWF ranger. Second wind is obviously our only option for healing in any given fight with the exception of a few fighter powers (unstoppable temp hp I think).

In any given encounter, my ranger and the wizard have a lot of ways to avoid incoming damage through our various utilities (and the wizard always makes it very clear that he always has invisibility up his sleeve so that he can run away and leave us in the lurch if things go wrong), most of the time, the fighter is the only PC who would need to use his SW.

My point is I suppose, that as a party, we aren't accustomed to receiving healing, and as such, if we are in a position where we need it to survive, then its appropriate 'punishment' to lose our standard action, as we would only ever use it when we don't have a choice, ie we don't think we are going to kill them before they kill us.

In our group, making it anything other than a standard action would make it a no-brainer in every encounter for sure, as soon as you lose more HP than your surge value, use SW, there's no reason not to, and that takes away the tactical element for me (which I like).

In conclusion, I don't think SW 'needs' to be used more, I would leave it as it is.