D&D 4E In 4E Asmodeus will be a god!

[mhacdebhandia]

though it's worth noting that unlike, say, Loki, Asmodeus is still a malicious deity or demon in a thriving real-world religion - Zoroastrianism, which is where he originally hails from (and from whence all the other monotheisms picked up him and the general concept of demons). These boards aren't the place for it, but I would be curious to see what a Parsi or Zoroastrian would feel about this. I wouldn't want people to be genuinely offended by our game, whatever the advertising advantages.

Are you also concerned about the possible use of Loki, Odin, and Thor in the game, for fear of offending Asatruar?

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I think it been confirmed that alignment will have no mechanical affect on play.

Except that they did mention "lawful evil paladins of Asmodeus" specifically.

 

[Baby Samurai]

Except that they did mention "lawful evil paladins of Asmodeus" specifically.

Yeah, I have always like alignment as a meta-game/philosophical concept (Planescape, gods etc), but I have never liked things like detect evil and alignment bane weapons etc.

…Hey, do you remember alignment languages?

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Yep! I started with the "red box" Basic Set, so alignment languages were right in there (on a three-alignment axis, no less).

 

[Baby Samurai]

Yep! I started with the "red box" Basic Set, so alignment languages were right in there (on a three-alignment axis, no less).

Right on, I started with 1st edition AD&D – "so you speak Lawful Good too!?"

 

[Li Shenron]

While I on the other hand think the gods of D&D should be so far beyond mortal it would be inconceivable to even think of trying to kill or even meet one. Fortunately each campaign setting (including homebrews) can have its own rules for how all that stuff works.

Quoted to the core. I've always always kept divine beings shrouded in some mystery in all my games. My players may think they really know what gods are, but that doesn't make the gods like that anyway.

 

[Flobby]

It is essentially a matter of semantics, although I don't think it's quite that one.


The other part of the equation is the use of the word 'god'. To be honest, I prefer they use 'deity' or 'power' instead, purely for semantic reasons. However, the use of 'god' for the fictional D&D gods doesn't offend me in the slightest. When it's attached to these 'Hollywood' names, though... I dunno, it feels like they're drawing an equivalence that shouldn't be there. (And I have no problem with them being arch-fiends, or even being described as having "power that rivals that of the gods themselves". But attach the word 'god', or stat them with Divine Rank, or its 4e equivalent, and I have a problem.)

I don't mean to take this too far into a religious topic but I just wanted to say one thing-- although it is long . "god" is just a word, it just happens to the be the one we use for the Judeo-Christian-Muslim "God" in English. There have been all kinds of words used throughout history and as well as different words now dependant on the language of the worshipers. The word "Diety" is also used in sometimes for the Judeo-Christian-Muslim "God." Actaully if I recall correctly one of the possible origins of the word "demon" is celestial-- in other words not neccessarly "evil."

The word god (small-g) in English is used as a catch all for beings or whatever that have some control over our lives and nature-- but in actuality what "god" is varies greatly from religion to religion (and even that word is dubious in the real world). Until fairly recently in Christianity, as a whole that is, EVERY other "religion" was demonic. The "Mammon" of the bible was a "god" to another neighboring people to the Jews (and I believe some other "demons" of the Bible have similar origins).

In D&D a "god" is something different again from any real world religion-- its a fanatsy world, so they are free to use any definition they want-- the word "demon" or "devil" is also. And I don't believe that Christianity has every differenciated the terms. The words "demon" "arch-devil" or even"god" in this fantasy world are arbitrary will little to do with their real world counterparts.

What I want to say is the terms "demon" and "god" (not big-G God!) have been interchangeble in the past. And if "god" (in D&D or in the real-world for that matter) as some being that has worshipers and has control over us/nature, then I see no problem with bringing any demon to god status. (I don't really see the difference between an "evil god" and a "demon" anyway...). And in this sense I wouldn't have a problem if you refered to Satan as a (small-g!) god.

(As a Christian) I WOULD of course see a problem if WoC or anyone tried to stat God or Christ, or said said demon. And I think I would even if I wasn't Christian. I actually have heard of a d20 Amida-- which I think is going a little far-- and I'm not Buddhist. These are real-world religions. As far as I know nobody worships demons or devils seriously -- even the Church of Satan doesn't actually believe there are real devils.

Anyway sorry for my rambling here, but thats why I see no problem with elavating that demon to a "god." Its a game world, and completly different from saying it is God-- which would be just as offensive as saying that D&D Thor was God.Of course I can't control what offends who-- just wanted to put my 2 cents in

 

[Gentlegamer]

Yes, deus is Latin for "god." It is the origin of our English word "deity."

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

Consequently, I would be really unhappy if Mammon, for example, were suddenly to be labelled as anything other than Evil, even if WotC published a year-long mega-campaign dealing with the repentance and redemption of that character in the D&D universe. It just wouldn't sit right.

Now I'm really confused, I thought redemption was a good thing?

I think that since you've explained you can't find a contradiction in the current D&D theology, stretching it to Asmo shouldn't be difficult. It's just a name, and the character happens to be evil. Since there's almost nothing written about him in real world theology, and the stuff that does exist bears no resemblance to what he's got up to in D&D, they're clearly not the same incarnation. If you're ok with St. Cuthbert being 'inspired by' but really not the same person as the actual St. Cuthbert (an Irish soldier-defender guy - seeing his remains in Durham cathedral is awesome), then it should be ok to view Asmodeus in that way. You're not actively going to worship either the fictional or real versions after all.

 

[TerraDave]

But what about Orcus?

Exactly, he was a god afteral.

They have mentioned using real world sources for gods (at least Thor). Will they create some kind of all-star pantheon with Thor, Zeus, etc all mixed together? This could be...silly...