D&D 5E In fifth-edition D&D, what is gold for?

[DM_Jeff]

Don't think I saw these suggestions yet, but even folks wary of DM's Guild can rest easy with these handy items:

Guildhalls

Shops

 

[not-so-newguy]

Also, here's a link to the PDF of the "sane magical item prices" that was floating around a while back:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/view

Don't think I saw these suggestions yet, but even folks wary of DM's Guild can rest easy with these handy items:

Guildhalls

Shops

With these three items, I think I'm covered as far as what I can do with my gold. Thanks!

 

[Ilbranteloth]

I have zero problems with posters posting actual houserule suggestions.

I have large problems with posters posting posts to the effect of
- there is no problem
- running as intended
- wotc has changed direction
- you can fix it yourself you know

Why? Because that does not bring me any closer to a resolution. Just accepting a deficiency (or worse, apologizing for WotC's inability to provide official support) gets me nowhere.

So the difference is: "have you tried adding X to Y, or have you tried replacing M with N" is constructive.

Merely repeating the truism "don't complain, WotC doesn't prevent you from fixing it" isn't. Don't just say "you can houserule". I already know this. Stop telling us things everybody already know. Say what specific houserule you suggest.

Saying things like "you don't need X, you just need to play differently" or "you can always make up Y on the fly" are thoroughly unwelcome. These posts question the very premise of the thread. In my opinion, such posters should be moderated harshly, since all they do is add to the acrimonity of the forum.

For instance, if there's a thread "5E needs more knitting rules". It's completely natural for such a thread to include arguments why WotC should publish "The Utterly Complete Guide to Knitting for Fighters, Wizards and everyone else" so we don't have to make up our own houserules.

The one thing such a thread does not need is posts to the effects of
- there is no problem
- running as intended
- wotc has changed direction
- you can fix it yourself you know

If that's what you feel; it's much better, more considerate, and much more to the point, to start a separate thread called "Why Fighters Don't Need to Knit" or something, where you can discuss with likeminded without coming across as derailing, trolling or similar in the first thread.

I sincerely hope ENWOrld will start experimenting with "plus threads" where we can finally report posts that aren't posted in the spirit of the OP.

Of course, other people are free to start such threads as well. The question is: will they?

After all, there exists a group that won't benefit from such a moderation change is the group of posters that seldom contribute anything themselves but mostly visit to post in other people's threads, and then mostly only to argue against the premise of those threads. (This would be a very good thing )

As a closing remark: From my perspective, the fact we are now undeniably discussing something else than the problem of D&D supplying gold but providing only downtime options for spending it, means someone has successfully derailed the thread. I emphatically wish this was considered bad form, and something moderators would act upon if reported.

OK, I'm not entirely sure what posts are problematic to you. But I'll readdress the original post.

First, I think the "problem" is in part based on the expectations of the players, and that, in part, is based on how/when they learned how to play D&D.

If you started during AD&D, particularly if you approach it with the original Arneson/Gygax approach using hirelings, paying sages for information, building strongholds, etc., this has remained possible through all editions of the game, with the possible exception of 4e (I don't know it well enough to comment). This also applies if you were from the Greenwood style of play, with your characters cemented firmly in the world, with regular lives, expenses, etc. There weren't a lot of rules to support this (although as 2e progressed there were rules for just about everything), you just understood that life costs money, and you spend it. Also characters have personalities, and some of them have expensive tastes, in addition, with things like the Volo's Guides you had lots of things to spend money on each time you went to town.

If you started in later editions of the game, such as 3/3.5e when magic item purchases were expected, or 4e with its own method for addressing gold, then you may not have been introduced to either of those earlier play styles.

The 5e rules specifically introduce hirelings, monthly expenses, and downtime activities, including magic item creation and some fashion of pricing magic items if you want to have magic items for sale. These are scattered through the DMG and PH, and are little more than a paragraph or two on each subject. Seemingly because (and they even state this is some cases) that people find these types of activities boring. Some of us don't. But if you take the expenses rule (PHB 157, DMG 126), the downtime activities rules (PHB 187, DMG 127) and hirelings (PHB 159 under Services and DMG 94), you actually have most of the rules that existed in AD&D.

So the real issue seems to be one of focus.

You have gamers from earlier editions with expectations that are not met in a manner they expect. For example, magic item trade/sale. WotC has mentioned that they aren't interested in reprinting everything that's been published before, nor do they intend to write rules for every possibility that exists in the game. They have provided a framework, with the expectation that you will determine what works for your campaign, or you can go back to earlier editions (the 3.5e SRD is readily available online, and most of the books are available to purchase digitally) to flesh out what you want.

You have new gamers who are picking up from 5e. The presentation of how to play the game is done through the rule books and published adventures. The APs don't spend a lot of time in town, or fixing the characters within the campaign. They are designed to keep you on the adventure, and "skip past the boring parts" although not as much as 4e tended to. But that play-style also assumes that you will gain a level every several sessions, and reach the end of the AP around 15th level within, say, 3-12 months depending on how many sessions, and how long your sessions are. With that approach, relieving the characters of their gold is irrelevant, because you're about at the point when you'll retire that character, which is further encouraged by the next AP requiring characters of 1st to 5th level. So the design of the game itself in this case has removed the need for gold.

Another source of player expectations are those that come from other games, or video games. Many provide some method for spending gold, almost always centered on the goal of improving your character and their capabilities. This is similar to the 4e method of building magic items directly into the character advancement scheme, where they are expected and have an associated cost in gold. This doesn't have a direct correlation in 5e, but you can use the basic framework to determine the cost of magic items. You as a DM are required to determine what might be available, although there are guidelines on DMG pg 130 for selling them.

Those guidelines highlight the problem I have with all of these types of rules, though, and why rules regarding sales of magic items, item creation, etc. are extremely difficult to write. Their rules base the price, and how long it takes to find a buyer based on the rarity of the magic item. You can make a check once every 10 days. So it might take some time to sell it. But if you're new to D&D, and you don't have a group of existing players to help you learn, how do you learn the game? Using the core books and an adventure. None of the adventures present much in the way of spending time in town, much less a home. The non-adventure parts of the campaign are all lumped into the Downtime Activity umbrella and occur largely off-stage. So taking 10 days or 30 days is irrelevant as long as the players agree that they aren't going anywhere until the process is done. In other words, there really isn't any point in a process that takes time unless that time means something in your campaign.

This approach works very, very well with the Gygax approach, where people have multiple characters, and there's a large group of players and each session typically involves different players. Gary recommended a 1 day real world = 1 day game world approach for characters that weren't in play, so that all characters would be on the same time scale. Otherwise not so much.

And really that's the crux of the problem in designing a system. It is highly dependent on the play style of your campaign. My players have characters that have a life and like stuff. Think about this world, what do people spend money on when they win the lottery? Trips, fun, houses, cars, more expensive stuff like bigger TVs, computers, expensive furniture, jewelry, etc. If you were an adventurer and came back with a bunch of gold, what would you spend it on? Most people would spend it on things like those. My treasures often include things like rugs from Calimshan, tapestries, sets of bowls handcarved from rare Chultan wood with dinosaur motifs, jewelry (which in my campaign, unless it's a "known" piece can be purchased for 10x or more their weight in gold and value in gems, but if you want to resell it can only be sold for its weight - just like real life...), and all sorts of other things besides just coins. Monstrous humanoids almost never have coins in my campaigns, because they don't have a coin-based economy or a society where money matters. No orc in their right mind would trade a human-forged steel sword for coins. They pay taxes and fees, and a % of coins when they change it into local currency. My rules require wizards to have a library and laboratory to learn spells and craft items, and that requires a building to put them in, with regular expenses to stock it, etc. They have families that they give coin to, farms, businesses, and homes. They host parties and go on hunting trips. Much of the adventure occurs when they are doing something else, like taking a vacation to Cormyr. Occasionally they might be the target of thieves or bandits.

If your campaign doesn't play out the periods between adventures, and you don't concern yourself with downtime much, then just go through the rules once as a DM and determine what amount or percentage of coins to relieve them of each month. Then decide what magic items you want to be available to purchase. I'd recommend consumables, weapons and armor be the most common. I'd also recommend non-recharging magic items (like wands). If the prices in the DMG don't work, check out 3.5e prices or 2e prices and see if they work better as a rough guideline. If you aren't playing out the lives of the characters outside of the dungeon, than things like economy and whether the gold of the adventurers mean anything is irrelevant.

The basic framework is in the game. But it's scattered in several places and not built upon or designed for an in-game approach. It's also considered entirely optional because the game is more centered on a design of rapid level advancement, where gaining experience and new abilities is more of a focus than gaining treasure. A strict reading of 6-8 encounters per day and recommended experience per player per day, a character can go from 1st to 15th+ level in a month, and 20th level by 35 or so days. For all practical purposes you are winning the lottery, and you do what everybody does when they win the lottery. You retire.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Ah but our opinions are shaped by our experiences and are thus functionally joined at the hip, making a reference to one a reference to the other...

One would hope.

 

[Helldritch]

The basic framework is in the game. But it's scattered in several places and not built upon or designed for an in-game approach. It's also considered entirely optional because the game is more centered on a design of rapid level advancement, where gaining experience and new abilities is more of a focus than gaining treasure. A strict reading of 6-8 encounters per day and recommended experience per player per day, a character can go from 1st to 15th+ level in a month, and 20th level by 35 or so days. For all practical purposes you are winning the lottery, and you do what everybody does when they win the lottery. You retire.

Yep, you are right about the pace of leveling. I much prefer the old style where rising in level was quite an accomplishment by itself. A 1ed 9th level paladin was something to behold. It was an accomplishment. Now, it's just an other level...

Is it bad? Nope. Is it better? It depends on your tastes. I do like the fact that now most levels are attainable. What we forget is that sometimes, months and even years can pass between adventures. A campaing module such as we have gives a strange view of the standard adventure. I'd rather have 10 different adventures linked together by my care than one big campaing. Once in a while the big campaing is welcome. But I still like the old way of adventuring. The sunless citadel campaing was really well made and gave the impression that you were not part of a campaing until a few of them were done where the players learned of the back ground story behind their troubles. That serie was what a campaing should look like. Multiple quests with time to do some personnal stuff between them and it was a good time to spend your hard earned cash.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

Sure and I'm happy it all worked out for you.

What I wonder, though, is why everyone is so accepting and forgiving of the fact that we had a perfectly good outlet for all the gold, namely magic items, and then that just dried up with no substitute.

Because for some of us, that "perfectly good outlet" isn't.

I looked at the document Saidoro put together about "sane" magical item prices mentioned elsewhere in the thread, here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/view)

For you, the idea that you kill things, get treasure, and buy stuff to make you better at killing things is one style of playing, but it ignores a lot of other things. If you read Saidoro's posts (here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?424243-Sane-Magic-Item-Prices) it's clear that what "shattered his mind" is that an item that is "less good" costs much more than one that is much better.

Even in today's world there are examples of this, but the concept of magic item sales, and "sane" prices doesn't make sense in my Forgotten Realms at all, and really doesn't for most D&D worlds. "Sane balanced" prices requires a supply consistent enough to meet demand and that the cost of manufacture can support. Volume discounts only come into play if scaling up quantity reduces the cost-per-item of manufacture.

Magic items are rare. More importantly, most of the population are not adventurers. What an adventurer finds useful won't be the same as your typical farmer. His post starts with a commentary on flying items. Sure, flying would be cool and all, but it doesn't plow the fields, or forge horseshoes, or clean the living room, or cook dinner, or provide light or heat, or all of the mundane things that would be most beneficial to the average person.

That also assumes that the economy actually pays the average person in coin, and enough of it to spend on things like a magical plow rather than horses or oxen, which are also useful for other things. And that assumes that creating such magical items is easy enough to make them readily available at a reasonable price.

Magic items that are beneficial from a combat standpoint, and can be made relatively easy, will be kept by those that know the secret away from others if at all possible. Why? If it's a villain, it gives them an advantage. If not, it's most likely to be developed militarily which also works best if you have the capability and your enemies don't. Wars very well might be fought over the secrets of crafting certain items if it's easy enough to do that you could open up shop just like a blacksmith.

The reality is, the price of a magic item is entirely supply and demand. Rules that actually set prices based their capabilities only bear no relationship to what would be a reasonable price in the game-world. The Forgotten Realms has had for some time the idea that you can potentially shop for magic items. The Red Wizards have set up enclaves to sell the most common magic items, and although a specific list has never been outlined, the list would be pretty small. For one, they have no interest in equipping their enemies. They do use it as sort of a "diplomatic" approach to improve the general populace outlook toward them, but their ultimate goals are probably more about espionage and staging pockets of power in regions they one day hope to control.

Otherwise, traveling merchants or oddity shops might have magic items. With the 5e rules, any merchant can spend an hour with an item and know exactly what it does. I prefer the requirement for research (sages and such) or a spell, although a merchant that deals with items like these on a regular basis will probably have access to such a spell. But in a given town, their might be a few dozen magic items available, if that. And other than weapons or armor that give a straight bonus (or healing potions), most of those items available will all do different things. You want to be able to fly? Then you may have one option, that potion of healing that Grenelda has at her shop. 10,000 gp seems steep, but what choice do you have? Either you get to fly, or you don't.

I have a friend who had a shop with a set of 3 books for sale. It was a small press, very limited single run. He priced them at $450 when he first got them, and even when closing his store, he never changed the price. Many, many people wanted to buy them, but didn't want to pay the price. Of course, they always told him he'd never sell them at that price. But they were wrong, it was just a matter of waiting for somebody who wanted them enough that they were willing to pay that. The fact that his store was closing probably had an impact as well. But imagine a traveling merchant that will be leaving town tomorrow, and won't be back for a year. The chances they will still have that wand of fireballs (with 9 non-replenishing charges left) is pretty slim. Either you buy it or you don't. He doesn't care if you don't think it's worth 75,000 gp. Somebody will.

More importantly, this also becomes irrelevant in the context of most games. Why? Because your party will have an excess of treasure and no place else to spend it. If you don't account for the rest of life - monthly expenses, family, and the frivolous way that most people who come into large amounts of money quickly - then all of the treasure they have found will still be available. And for all practical purposes, useless otherwise. The price becomes irrelevant, other than the players wanting to be able to get more stuff with it.

So, no, I don't think we had a "perfectly good outlet for all the gold" with magic item sales. In fact, in a campaign that actually focuses on the world and the impact such a concept has on it, it's a very bad outlet. It would change the nature of the world significantly.

I wonder why everyone simply accepts the huge headache you get as DM when the players realize there's nothing worthwhile to spend their gold on.

That part of the game was fun. Now it's no longer supported.

To me, that's a huge letdown.

This is simple. Because it's not a headache at all. At least not to me. Not one iota. In fact, it has never crossed my mind. Ever. I suspect that's the same for many others as well. Start a poll: Does not having magic item shops in 5e give you a headache?

Second, it is supported, the game gives a general guideline for prices. If you don't like the way they've currently supported it, and you're an ex-3.5e player, the general approach to selling magic items hasn't changed a bit. If you don't like the DMG pricing scheme, use the 3.5e one, or Saidoro's list, or something different.

If magic items is the only thing that's "worthwhile to spend their gold on" then it's the only thing for them to spend their gold on in your campaign. If that's the case, then it's not fun (at least not to me). That means that the only option after an adventure is to pick through the magic item list and "spend" your gold? That's about the most boring thing I've heard. It sounds like the "characters" exist primarily as a bunch of stats on a piece of paper, and you're looking only at trying to improve those stats.

I prefer characters that have, well, character. They have a place in the world, they have likes, dislikes, hobbies, or things they like to spend their money on. Like an adventure, fun is generally enabled by choices, and particularly meaningful choices. Like I have 350 gp to spend, and I could help my family cover the expenses of their farm after the hill giant attack destroyed 40% of their crops, or I can go carousing, take a trip to Waterdeep (I've never seen the city), or purchase this potion of healing. Decisions, decisions. I can probably help the family and still have some money for carousing.

Your implication here is that there's a big problem that all DMs have because of the way 5e has chosen to address magic item sales. The fact is, for many people (I would guess a majority), it's not an issue at all.

The standard used to be (until 3e) that you can't buy magic items. You had to find them. That's actually a pretty exciting approach to something like magic items, because it makes finding them a bigger deal. Think about it, you just had a fight with a bunch of orcs, and they were wearing leather or chainmail armor, with spears, hand axes, or scimitars. Altogether there are 6 sets of armor, and about a dozen weapons. How exciting is that? Probably not much, because you already have what you need, or you can just buy them if you don't. No, the only thing that's of interest is the potion of fire resistance that the leader had.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yet another long post that amounts to nothing more than "I get what I want but I want to deny you what you want" post @Ibranteloth.

Sigh.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[cmad1977]

A DM could I suppose make their own magic purchasing guidelines. There might even be some prices somewhere in one of the books.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[hawkeyefan]

Yet another long post that amounts to nothing more than "I get what I want but I want to deny you what you want" post @Ibranteloth.

Sigh.

May I ask why you don't reply to the posts that are attempting to help you with your issue with the game?

The only reply I can think of is when you said that the "Sane Magical Items Prices" document was no good because you didn't have the formulae used and couldn't view the discussions about how the figures were calculated.

Anyone else who has offered examples of how they use gold in their campaign, you have not replied. Anyone who has offered some kind of approach, you have not replied. Anyone who explains why the system is not a problem for them (which is not actually counter to the thread or the OP you made), you claim as "denying you what you want". Which isn't the case because it isn't up to us. Those folks are not denying you what you want...they are saying that they don't share your concern. There's a difference.

A few folks, myself included, have asked what it is you are hoping for. And it seems to me that the only result that you seem to be willing to consider is for WotC to create the rules that you want in regard to magic item pricing. Is that the only acceptable outcome for you? Or are you open to ideas from others?

Would any of the DMs Guild items mentioned by [MENTION=3687]DM_Jeff[/MENTION] work for you? Is the Sane Magic Prices document really useless to you? Can you not simply use the 3E era prices, or those provided in the 5E DMG? If not, why not?

I think if you answer these questions, then the discussion can proceed accordingly.