In Game/Out of Game Issues

[fusangite]

One thing that frankly baffles me on these boards is people's belief that people will change clearly inappropriate social behaviour because you ask/pressure them to. I've never seen that happen and, frankly, I think it usually functions to just make the who experience more intense, drawn-out and painful. But gamers, unlike everyone else, feel that they somehow have to do their due-dilligence and problem-solve before they work up the intestinal fortitude to do what needs to happen and stop associating with the person.

I'm getting the sense that everyone in your group, including the GM, has also noticed this guy is jerk with whom you would rather not game. Now, if this were poker or some other more traditional, socially domesticated game, this wouldn't be an issue. People would just stop inviting the guy and the problem would be solved. But somehow we RPG players think that we can magically reform people by the simple power of our words. Well, we may be special but we're not that special. This guy is a jerk and you should stop hanging out with him; don't use D&D as a justification for continuing a socially unpleasant experience.

Furthermore, pointing out to this guy how annoying he is is just going to make him feel worse too. So, it's not like you're doing something socially merciful and virtuous by telling this guy what a loser he no doubt already deems himself to be.

There is also a game play philosophy issue here.

No there isn't. There's just a guy being a jerk. Wrapping some gaming philosophy issue around a simple instance of dealing with a jerk is a common gamer strategy for creating these protracted and painful resolutions of what are essentially very simple clear-cut social situations.

 

[Turanil]

One thing that frankly baffles me on these boards is people's belief that people will change clearly inappropriate social behaviour because you ask/pressure them to.
<...>
Furthermore, pointing out to this guy how annoying he is is just going to make him feel worse too. So, it's not like you're doing something socially merciful and virtuous by telling this guy what a loser he no doubt already deems himself to be. <...>

I agree with you, except about this point: I think it's a good idea to firmly state to someone that they are "some limits" and you are just not going to let someone "step on your toes". Unpleasant people should be told that their behaviour is not tolerable, and it's also good for one's self esteem to say it, rather than let idiots be unpleasant with you. I think it's not the problem to know if it's useful or not, or if the person will feel bad about it. (However, I agree that it is easier to say than actually do.) Also, just saying to that person (if he asks) that he is not wanted anymore in the group is good too (I think it's obvious and more chastizing than just having words with him).

 

[Buttercup]

One thing that frankly baffles me on these boards is people's belief that people will change clearly inappropriate social behaviour because you ask/pressure them to. I've never seen that happen and, frankly, I think it usually functions to just make the who experience more intense, drawn-out and painful.

I love you, Fusangite.

I'm getting the sense that everyone in your group, including the GM, has also noticed this guy is jerk with whom you would rather not game. Now, if this were poker or some other more traditional, socially domesticated game, this wouldn't be an issue. People would just stop inviting the guy and the problem would be solved. But somehow we RPG players think that we can magically reform people by the simple power of our words. Well, we may be special but we're not that special. This guy is a jerk and you should stop hanging out with him; don't use D&D as a justification for continuing a socially unpleasant experience.

Aye. My advice to the player who started this thread is to grow a spine and tell the DM that the jerk has to go. You can't fix him. If you don't stand up for yourself then you've allowed the jerk to win. And for goodness sakes don't feel sorry for the idiot. Just drive on, with much incereased enjoyment after he's gone.

 

[fusangite]

I love you, Fusangite.

Awww... thanks. Get me to post in a thread where I don't have the chance to lecture people about religious history and I'm actually quite useful.

 

[ThoughtBubble]

One thing that frankly baffles me on these boards is people's belief that people will change clearly inappropriate social behaviour because you ask/pressure them to. I've never seen that happen and, frankly, I think it usually functions to just make the who experience more intense, drawn-out and painful. But gamers, unlike everyone else, feel that they somehow have to do their due-dilligence and problem-solve before they work up the intestinal fortitude to do what needs to happen and stop associating with the person.

But the evil guy who becomes good is so cool in books and comics and TV and movies! Those of us who are inspired to follow in those inspirational footsteps have no choice, it is our duty to make these angry anti-social players into our close companions!

Serioiusly though, it's often more complex than just growing a spine. One of the potentially problematic fellow players I'm dealing with has an added bonus, he's the best friend of one of the players, he gets along really well with the DM, and he lives with another of the players. The final player has been through a complete campaign with him and only marginally knows me. So, straight up growing a spine can easily get me on the bad foot with a group of people who are all my friends. Why? They're all his friends, and they hate confrontations.

The best advice I can offer is to be straight about the facts, and don't be too heavy of a jerk when you go to talk with him. If he gets defensive from the beginning, talking is pretty much a lost cause.

 

[The Shaman]

One thing that frankly baffles me on these boards is people's belief that people will change clearly inappropriate social behaviour because you ask/pressure them to. I've never seen that happen and, frankly, I think it usually functions to just make the who experience more intense, drawn-out and painful. But gamers, unlike everyone else, feel that they somehow have to do their due-dilligence and problem-solve before they work up the intestinal fortitude to do what needs to happen and stop associating with the person.

Given that it is a social situation, some (myself included) would call it simple common (uncommon, unfortunately) courtesy.

IMX it is possible to explain that someone that her/his behavior is affecting others without making them feel like something you stepped in while walking through the dog park - in fact, it's a way of telling someone that they matter enought to be worth the time and effort to include instead of simply showing them the door.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, don't invite the problem player back. There's no harm (and arguably much to gain) in making the effort either way.

 

[vortex]

So, I'm having some issues with another player. We've only had 4 games, and he's driving me nuts. Basically it boils down to the fact that he's constantly thowing out caustic insults cleverly disguised as witty barbs.

Your player isn't english or austrsalian, is he?

This is how we normally talk to each other.
Sometimes, in the company of americans, such sacrasm can be taken literally and unintentionally cause offense.

 

[fusangite]

Given that it is a social situation, some (myself included) would call it simple common (uncommon, unfortunately) courtesy.

I'm sorry but I just don't see any equivalency here between courtesy and honesty. Courtesy is about withholding unpleasant information, not distributing it.

IMX it is possible to explain that someone that her/his behavior is affecting others without making them feel like something you stepped in while walking through the dog park

Of course this is theoretically possible but tends to work when two key things are true: 1. you already have a bond of intimacy and trust with the person; and 2. the person is secure enough to be able to accept criticism. In difficult gaming situations presented on ENWorld, this one included, neither is true. And frankly, I don't think it's fair to either party to shoot for that 0.01% chance that someone so insecure as to screw up a D&D group with his social maladaptation can receive this criticism without either of these two basic conditions being met.

in fact, it's a way of telling someone that they matter enought to be worth the time and effort to include instead of simply showing them the door.

You're assuming I think the person should be told they are being kicked out -- just tell the person the game has been cancelled due to GM family or professional demands.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't, don't invite the problem player back. There's no harm (and arguably much to gain) in making the effort either way.

OK. You have to actually give me some evidence that this has ever worked in a real life gaming situation you were in.

 

[Chimera]

Of course this is theoretically possible but tends to work when two key things are true: 1. you already have a bond of intimacy and trust with the person; and 2. the person is secure enough to be able to accept criticism. In difficult gaming situations presented on ENWorld, this one included, neither is true. And frankly, I don't think it's fair to either party to shoot for that 0.01% chance that someone so insecure as to screw up a D&D group with his social maladaptation can receive this criticism without either of these two basic conditions being met.

I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt and try this first rather than go straight to "kick him to the curb".

You're assuming I think the person should be told they are being kicked out -- just tell the person the game has been cancelled due to GM family or professional demands.

Wow! Now who needs to grow a set of balls? Lying about it isn't going to help anything. If you're going to take the extreme step of kicking someone out of your group, then be adult enough to tell them the truth as to the why and wherefor. Don't pull this childish passive-aggressive crap.

If they can't handle it, it isn't your problem. It's theirs. And since they won't be around you anymore, you don't have to deal with it. Unless they are a friend or acquaintance in other areas, in which it will continue to be an issue. (I know from whence I speak on that one, having tossed an "old friend" out of my game for blatantly cheating on a ridiculous level.)

 

[The Shaman]

I'm sorry but I just don't see any equivalency here between courtesy and honesty. Courtesy is about withholding unpleasant information, not distributing it.

I associate courtesy with how we present unpleasant information to others, not keeping it from them. I believe it's possible to be both forthright and courteous - in fact, I consider that a mark of a person's integrity.

Of course this is theoretically possible but tends to work when two key things are true: 1. you already have a bond of intimacy and trust with the person; and 2. the person is secure enough to be able to accept criticism.

There are no guarantees on number two, but as far as number one goes, I don't spend my leisure time with people where there isn't an established "bond of intimacy and trust."

If I spent my time cruising gaming shops looking to play with "Mr. Goodgame," then perhaps I would agree. However, outside of the online arena, I don't play with total strangers.

In difficult gaming situations presented on ENWorld, this one included, neither is true. And frankly, I don't think it's fair to either party to shoot for that 0.01% chance that someone so insecure as to screw up a D&D group with his social maladaptation can receive this criticism without either of these two basic conditions being met.

I find that presumptive - I get from the OP that this situation is unresolved, not unresolveable.

If this is the norm for the player in question - say it's how he played with his old gaming group - and he moves into a new circumstance in which that same behavior is conflicting with others, why presume that the player is even aware of the way in which his style is impacting the others at the table (including the OP) and that he wouldn't consider changing his style to fit the group? Is it really one person in 10,000 who on being told that, "Listen, Let me tell you a little bit about the way we usually play..." who would say, "Sorry, I didn't realize that was a problem?"

By way of a concrete example, when I changed jobs I went from a circumstance of working with some really rough characters (with a gallows sense of humor) into an environment that was more laid-back and collegial - it was incumbent on me to tone down some of the stuff that would be perfectly acceptable in the first situation but not in the second. Had I not picked up on this myself, I would hope that one of my co-workers would have the good graces to tell me so.

I get the sense that based on a few sentences from the OP you see this player as some sort of pathological social misfit instead of someone who's adjusting to the style of play of a new group. You may be right - only the OP knows for sure - but I believe it's worth at least a conversation to find out for sure. There's no harm in giving the player the benefit of the doubt.

You're assuming I think the person should be told they are being kicked out -- just tell the person the game has been cancelled due to GM family or professional demands.

Lying isn't courtesy where I come from. And no, I don't consider this a "little white lie" - that's what I tell my wife at Hanukkah so she don't guess her presents.

As I said, when I've encountered disruptive players in my games, if a friendly word didn't get the job done, then I had no problem telling them why they weren't invited back, frankly, honestly, and without being abusive. (There's that courtesy thing again.)

OK. You have to actually give me some evidence that this has ever worked in a real life gaming situation you were in.

fusangite, it works in life, not just gaming situations, but yes, I've had discussions with players about how their behavior was affecting me or others, and yes, I've had both good results and I've asked players to leave games. I feel good about making the effort in every case.