In Game/Out of Game Issues

[tonym]

One thing that frankly baffles me on these boards is people's belief that people will change clearly inappropriate social behaviour because you ask/pressure them to.

Awwwww, c'mon. People can change their behavior. I've seen gamers stop smoking at the table even though they wanted to smoke, stop hogging all the good magic items during treasure allocation, cut-down on their OOC conversations and other stuff, just because somebody mentioned to them that a change in their behavior was desired.

Of course, you said "clearly inappropriate" behavior, so maybe my examples are not examples of clearly inappropriate behavior, but are something milder, like "mildly inappropriate" behavior.

Then again, maybe the annoying guy being discussed in this thread is guilty of only "mildly inappropriate" behavior. I'd have to read several quotes of things he's said to see if he crosses the imaginary-line I've set in my mind for such a thing.

So, yeh, I'm thinking the conflict can be fixed by ThaDium.

Tony M

 

[Teflon Billy]

...Lying about it isn't going to help anything...

What? Sure it is.

It's going to get a KNob out of your gaming group with the minimum amount of fuss.

To me, that's a pretty signifigant "Something"

 

[Orius]

My impression of his philosophy is that he takes an adversarial role with the DM but at the same time expects the DM to entertain him by throwing out plots until one comes by that he likes or thinks he can get something out of and then he follows it.

Well, when I DM and I get a player making problems and ignoring plot hooks, his PC tends to start getting nuisance random encounters or various minor misfortunes. Some players tend to get the picture and desist. The ones who don't, well the misfortunes of their PC usually counteract their abrasive playing habits by providing amusement for the rest of us who have to put up with their crap. I'm sure some people will say I'm making things worse, but I don't really mind. I've never had the misfortune of having a player who I felt was so disruptively bad I had to boot him from the group.

 

[Orius]

ALSO: there is no reason your character should tolerate the insults of his character!! Remember that in a medieval like world, one would be much more prone to take violent action to defend his honor than in our modern world where we either ignore or attempt "a Diplomacy check".

Exactly. Back in The Good Old Days (tm), if you got in someone's face, you could expect their fist in your face. Or worse. In any case, confront him in character, it's possible the player might back down. If he doesn't and he causes problems for the group then you'll have to convince the other players and the DM to boot him.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

The whole point of speaking to the player and the DM is to give the person a chance to change their behaviour. If they don't, then it's their own fault if they get booted. To not speak to the player in person is reminiscent of high school behaviour where you don't have the balls to confront someone to their face. I've been in a group where one player decided to up and leave b/c of the disturbing attitude of another player; it was a real wake-up call for the rest of the group and the disturbing player was cut soon after.

Now that the original poster has given us more of the story (the whole story?), I'd say it's time to either boot the player in question or leave. The fact that the DM and the other players don't seem all that bothered may mean they'd rather have the disturbing player in the group than the player who is being disturbed.

Whatever the case is, it's time to take action. Trying to resolve this in-game is just going to lead to acrimony and chaos within the group and it's better off being resolved out-of-game. Afterall, this is a personality clash issue.

 

[ThirdWizard]

What? Sure it is.

It's going to get a KNob out of your gaming group with the minimum amount of fuss.

To me, that's a pretty signifigant "Something"

But it undermines trust of the remaining members. You now know that you are playing with people who can't be bothered to be honest when it isn't convenient for them. If I didn't trust my group, I would not play with them. It's immature and immature behavior just breeds drama among its members. I know that the people I play with are honest people and would never talk behind the back of other members. Maybe in the short term it will be easier for those who can't deal with it maturely, but for those of us who want a good long term group it can only cause problems.

 

[The Shaman]

If I didn't trust my group, I would not play with them.

Quoted...truthery...

 

[maddman75]

This guy is a knob from everything I've seen. He's not just a jerk to the OP, he's a jerk to the DM. Talking to him about it can have several results, not all of them good. I mean what are you going to say - "could you be less like, well, you?" He could get all ticked off, and storm out of the group - a winnar is yuo. Or he could try to bend the DM and other players to 'his side', ie a bunch of drama. He could say 'Oh okay man no problem' and still make comments and compete with the DM, hiding behind "I'm just playing my character".

The geek social fallacies are all over this thread. Why are so many of you so concerned with how a tool is treated? If my group did this (for one it would likely turn out better than attempts to talk to a problem player like this) I wouldn't fear they'd do the same to me. Because I'm not a tool.

 

[fusangite]

I'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt and try this first rather than go straight to "kick him to the curb".

While I agree in principle, it is often true that early on, we have amassed all the information we need.

Wow! Now who needs to grow a set of balls?

Thanks very much but I am quite sufficiently endowed in that respect, as people who know me can attest. The question is what you use the balls for. I engage in confrontations when there is a positive outcome from doing so -- and let me assure you that I don't shy away from such opportunities but telling some guy I don't want to game with him because he's socially maladjusted is not one of those situations. Where is the positive outcome for me? Where is the positive outcome for him?

If you're going to take the extreme step of kicking someone out of your group, then be adult enough to tell them the truth as to the why and wherefor. Don't pull this childish passive-aggressive crap.

You're sure inverted my idea -- and that of most people -- on what it means to be childish versus adult. Once you're out of high school and voluntarily choosing your associates, you should never need to tell people that you don't want to hang out with them except under extraordinary circumstances. Just imagine dating run under your rules -- just replace all the times that people say "I'm not in a space in my life where I can really get involved in something serious," with "You may have lost a lot of weight but your skin hasn't adjusted and there's a big dewlap of skin hanging off your abdomen that grosses me out every time you take your clothes off" or something similar and you can see how actually acting like an adult is all about knowing when it is appropriate to tell the truth and when it's not.

If they can't handle it, it isn't your problem. It's theirs. And since they won't be around you anymore, you don't have to deal with it.

So fill me in here: what's the positive thing that's being gained?

I associate courtesy with how we present unpleasant information to others, not keeping it from them. I believe it's possible to be both forthright and courteous - in fact, I consider that a mark of a person's integrity.

Seriously? If people ask you if you like their new outfit and you don't, you tell them? Judging by your comments on the other thread about your dating success, I have to ask, how does "do I look fat" fit in here? I'm sorry but it's not just a "how," it's an "if" when it comes to presenting information to people.

I don't spend my leisure time with people where there isn't an established "bond of intimacy and trust."

Fair enought but how does that help this guy? Sometimes, we meet new people through gaming with whom this bond does not yet exist.

By way of a concrete example, when I changed jobs I went from a circumstance of working with some really rough characters (with a gallows sense of humor) into an environment that was more laid-back and collegial - it was incumbent on me to tone down some of the stuff that would be perfectly acceptable in the first situation but not in the second. Had I not picked up on this myself, I would hope that one of my co-workers would have the good graces to tell me so.

You're kind of making my point here. You are the kind of person to notice this sort of thing; why would you assume that people who don't share these capacities for noticing social cues would be similar to you socially in other respects?

it works in life, not just gaming situations, but yes, I've had discussions with players about how their behavior was affecting me or others, and yes, I've had both good results and I've asked players to leave games. I feel good about making the effort in every case.

But I thought you only gamed with people with whom you share a bond of intimacy and trust -- and yet you have kicked them out of games? Now that's something I've never done. I can't imagine evicting a good friend from a gaming group.

tonym, I'm inclined to agree with you that the behaviours you are talking about are not as transgressive as those I'm talking about.

But it undermines trust of the remaining members. You now know that you are playing with people who can't be bothered to be honest when it isn't convenient for them. If I didn't trust my group, I would not play with them.

Let me get this straight: you only game with these people because you believe they never lie?

It's immature and immature behavior just breeds drama among its members.

Actually, it eliminates drama by going directly to its source and removing it.

Maybe in the short term it will be easier for those who can't deal with it maturely, but for those of us who want a good long term group it can only cause problems.

So you think maturity=never lying? Well, that's a new definition of the term.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Lying is mature?