In Game/Out of Game Issues

[maddman75]

Lying is mature?

Maturity is knowing when lying is appropriate and when it is not.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I've gotten by fairly well in life without lying to my friends. And they don't lie to me. Interesting, huh? Hanging out with people you can trust.

EDIT: Even if you think lying is right in this circumstance, I still say it undermines the group and breeds paranoia between members. How many people do you do this to? Who's next? Jimmy? I never did like him, time to talk to the DM about getting some "personal issues."

 

[Pbartender]

Allow me to post an excerpt from of my favorite on-line articles, Five Geek Social Fallacies...

Geek Social Fallacy #1: Ostracizers Are Evil

GSF1 is one of the most common fallacies, and one of the most deeply held. Many geeks have had horrible, humiliating, and formative experiences with ostracism, and the notion of being on the other side of the transaction is repugnant to them.

In its non-pathological form, GSF1 is benign, and even commendable: it is long past time we all grew up and stopped with the junior high popularity games. However, in its pathological form, GSF1 prevents its carrier from participating in -- or tolerating -- the exclusion of anyone from anything, be it a party, a comic book store, or a web forum, and no matter how obnoxious, offensive, or aromatic the prospective excludee may be.

As a result, nearly every geek social group of significant size has at least one member that 80% of the members hate, and the remaining 20% merely tolerate. If GSF1 exists in sufficient concentration -- and it usually does -- it is impossible to expel a person who actively detracts from every social event. GSF1 protocol permits you not to invite someone you don't like to a given event, but if someone spills the beans and our hypothetical Cat Piss Man invites himself, there is no recourse. You must put up with him, or you will be an Evil Ostracizer and might as well go out for the football team.

This phenomenon has a number of unpleasant consequences. For one thing, it actively hinders the wider acceptance of geek-related activities: I don't know that RPGs and comics would be more popular if there were fewer trolls who smell of cheese hassling the new blood, but I'm sure it couldn't hurt. For another, when nothing smacking of social selectiveness can be discussed in public, people inevitably begin to organize activities in secret. These conspiracies often lead to more problems down the line, and the end result is as juvenile as anything a seventh-grader ever dreamed of.

 

[hong]

This guy is a knob from everything I've seen. He's not just a jerk to the OP, he's a jerk to the DM. Talking to him about it can have several results, not all of them good. I mean what are you going to say - "could you be less like, well, you?" He could get all ticked off, and storm out of the group - a winnar is yuo. Or he could try to bend the DM and other players to 'his side', ie a bunch of drama. He could say 'Oh okay man no problem' and still make comments and compete with the DM, hiding behind "I'm just playing my character".

The geek social fallacies are all over this thread. Why are so many of you so concerned with how a tool is treated? If my group did this (for one it would likely turn out better than attempts to talk to a problem player like this) I wouldn't fear they'd do the same to me. Because I'm not a tool.

Mind you, the tool probably thinks the same.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I have kicked people out of my groups before. In all cases, I told them they either had to change what they were doing, and told them what they were doing wrong, or to not bother coming back to the next session. In all cases they have not come back to the next session. Simple. Straightforward. None of these games. All in all, I believe it has built a better group, we go out to eat together and hang out outside the gaming group.

When your hobby is hounded by people who have no feel for social interaction, sometimes its best to be honest. It might help the next group they join. Is that not worth a little effort on your part?

 

[Ashwyn]

I've gotten by fairly well in life without lying to my friends. And they don't lie to me. Interesting, huh? Hanging out with people you can trust.

How do you know they don't lie to you? Maybe they're really good at it.

 

[Gez]

Step 4: Having heard an insult, say loudly and clearly, "I spit on his character's boots and call him a WIMP." After you have repeated this phrase several times over several hours, he and everybody there will get the picture that he's trying to provoke you and that you are noting it. If this guy's a normal person, he will desist after hearing your response a few times. If not, skip Step 5 and proceed to Step 6.

Step 5: All is well. Resume having fun!! Do not proceed to Step 6.

Step 6: Have your PC take offense to what his PC says, have your PC draw his weapon and attack. Fight to the death.

Bah... Why wait? Just organize it with the other players, if he annoys both you and the DM, chances are he's also a pain in the donkey for the other players. Next time he provokes you, attack him, with the help of the other PCs.

Either he's outraged and leave (you win), or he stays and create a more amiable PC. If he stays and make a new PCs whose unique ambition is to avenge the previous, then kill him again, until he leaves or grow up.

 

[Buttercup]

But it undermines trust of the remaining members. You now know that you are playing with people who can't be bothered to be honest when it isn't convenient for them.

Wow. I wouldn't see it that way at all. Perhaps it's a self-esteem issue? I know I'm not a jerkwad, so I wouldn't worry that I'd be the next "victim". I and all my players lead busy lives. If we invited someone to play with us and they turned out to be a knob, we'd all want to resolve the situation as quickly and expediently as possible, so we could get back to using our rare and precious gaming time for...gaming.

Now, if it wasn't my table, that would be more complex. But in that case, I'd probably decide to either solve the problem in character by killing the knob's PC, or if that didn't work (because he rolled up an equally annoying character and continued as before) I'd tell the DM that one of us had to go. And if the DM didn't have the spine to boot the jerk, I'd be gone.

 

[hong]

Wow. I wouldn't see it that way at all. Perhaps it's a self-esteem issue? I know I'm not a jerkwad, so I wouldn't worry that I'd be the next "victim". I and all my players lead busy lives. If we invited someone to play with us and they turned out to be a knob, we'd all want to resolve the situation as quickly and expediently as possible, so we could get back to using our rare and precious gaming time for...gaming.

Now, if it wasn't my table, that would be more complex. But in that case, I'd probably decide to either solve the problem in character by killing the knob's PC, or if that didn't work (because he rolled up an equally annoying character and continued as before) I'd tell the DM that one of us had to go. And if the DM didn't have the spine to boot the jerk, I'd be gone.

You know, I don't think anyone has been suggesting the DM should keep the jerk. The question is how the DM boots the jerk. Now you could say that it doesn't matter, gone is gone, but I do think it's better karma to be straight with the guy rather than spinning some tale.

And by "straight with the guy" I don't mean "everyone hates you, you're a jerk and you smell bad too". It's possible to be diplomatic and also avoid telling outright lies.

 

[tonym]

Bah... Why wait?... Next time he provokes you, attack him, with the help of the other PCs.

Well, personally, I probably wouldn't wait very long before having my PC attack his PC. But I can think of 2 reasons to wait, since you asked...

1. You're in a very trappy dungeon and he's running the rogue.
2. Your d20 hasn't been rolling very well that evening.

In any event, I wouldn't ask the other PCs to help me out, like you suggested. I'd go face to face and tell the other PCs to stay out of it.

That way I'd get ALL his stuff when he was dead!


Tony M