In Place of Chainmail?

[mmadsen]

To reiterate, people seem to want:

• Compatability with D&D -- Not only should character stats be easy to convert to their mass-combat versions, but PCs should be able to interact with mass-combat enemies seemlessly. (What do you want in a mass combat system?)
• Cheap Plastic Figures -- Everyone can use hordes of Goblins and Orcs, even if they're not playing a wargame.
• Mass Combat -- At the very least, PCs should be able to lead a band of soldiers. We don't need streamlined rules for 5-on-5.

 

[CRG]

How skills and feats are mapping is kind of difficult to quickly explain.

Let me start with saying that the stuff I've developed is really just a set of extensions to D20. Anything that can be used as-is from D20 will be. This would include something like "weapon focus"...whether this is a individual hero or a group of 10 guys that have it, the result +1 to hit bonus is the same.

Essentially, the stat block for everyone is simplified. Skills with no real use on the battlefield are ignored. Skills with use are noted. Some skills might be mushed together to make things go quicker. For instance, instead of keeping track of spot/listen and hide/move silently, maybe to make battlefield play go quicker a "notice" and a "stealth" skill would be better.

Another thing is damage and hit points. My system doesn't have near the granularity as "normal" D20, but if you take an army of orcs against an army of elves, the elves WILL be more dexterous and in general have the affects of a nlower constitution. The orcs will be stronger, etc. That's not to say that a fighter with a flaming greatsword doesn't in general do more damage than a commoner with a dagger...these things do work their way out in my system.

By keeping things as close to D20 as possible, CR / EL becomes a feeder for a battlefield point / balance system. Its not an exact match and there are more detailed conversion guidelines I'm trying to get into a manageable amount of text (right now that bit is very lengthy). Anyway, it should be able to scale up to about what ever level you need.

On that point, one of the things I think that is needed and I include on a basic level are some basic armies and troops. This is so that if you want to take "human kingdom A" against "marauding orc horde B" you'll have some info you can use to get started without a bunch of paperwork. My hope is that in whatever form I finally realease this a forum like ENWorld would be the place where that wholesale conversion and army-building could be documented. The sheer hours involved in converting every possible creature to battlefield stats is immense, not to mention every possible configuration of equipment you might want to stick on a unit of calvary.

If you have specific questions about "what" I've done, maybe I can answer that. Until I hear back from the Natural20 folks though, I don't want to go into too much detail. Not that I'm arrogant enough to think what I have is really world shattering, but I have spent a bit of time on it.

 

[mmadsen]

Skills with no real use on the battlefield are ignored. Skills with use are noted. Some skills might be mushed together to make things go quicker. For instance, instead of keeping track of spot/listen and hide/move silently, maybe to make battlefield play go quicker a "notice" and a "stealth" skill would be better.

I was thinking that many skills could be reduced to quasi-feats. That is, if you have a skill bonus over some threshold (+5? +10?), you get some in-game ability. For instance, if your Hide and Move Silently bonuses were both over +5, you'd be officially "Stealthy", and troops couldn't attack you if you remained hidden in wooded terrain. Troops with +5 Wilderness Lore might move through wooded terrain more quickly. Troops with +5 Profession: Siege Engineer might man Ballistae, put up fortifications, etc.

Another thing is damage and hit points.

As I said before, you can speed up mass combat dramatically by replacing Hit Points with "stateless" damage. That is, instead of subtracting 5 Hit Points' damage from a soldier's 8 Hit-Point total, you could compare 5 Hit Points to 8 Hit Points, and give him a 5-in-8 chance of being killed outright. You'd probably want to roll percentile dice against precalculated chart for anyone with more than 12 Hit Points, but those characters could probably use "normal" Hit Points anyway, since they're "name" characters.

 

[CRG]

That isn't quite how I handled either but the concept is the same. You want damage and hitpoints to remain relative to normal table top standards, but still make it quick and easy to "compute". For skills, etc. I did something similar, however I've left them as "skills" for the most part and not "quasi feats". That would, IMO more closely keep the feel of playing D&D, etc.

 

[mmadsen]

You want damage and hitpoints to remain relative to normal table top standards, but still make it quick and easy to "compute".

For mass combat, I think the real killer isn't doing the Hit Point math a few hundred times; it's keeping track of which mini has how many Hit Points. "OK, man-at-arm 47 -- that's unit 4, right? -- has 8 minus 7 Hit Point, so, ooh, he's just barely holding on."

For skills, etc. I did something similar, however I've left them as "skills" for the most part and not "quasi feats". That would, IMO more closely keep the feel of playing D&D, etc.

I'd keep them as skills too, but I'd list battlefield abilities they qualify for next to the skills. What I'd try to avoid is opposed skill checks between dozens of troops.

 

[mmadsen]

I also want to configure a unit of various members, give them special unit feats (things like "Hold the line", or "Hot Shots") thast make a unit special.

Like, Ds Da Man, I'd like to see units with distinctive abilities. My fear is that the game can quickly get too complex for mass combat if it relies on mechanics that work fine for four-on-four fights -- or it can drift too far from D&D if uses entirely different mechanics.

What are some D&D Skills and Feats that could carry over well to a mass-combat game? Climb, Jump, and Swim should naturally reduce penalties for crossing obstacles. Ride should have some obvious effect on mounted combat. Rangers, with their Hide and Move Silently skills should be effectively invisible in woods -- and with their Listen and Spot skills they should be able to detect hidden enemies in wooded terrain too.

 

[mmadsen]

As I said before, you can speed up mass combat dramatically by replacing Hit Points with "stateless" damage. That is, instead of subtracting 5 Hit Points' damage from a soldier's 8 Hit-Point total, you could compare 5 Hit Points to 8 Hit Points, and give him a 5-in-8 chance of being killed outright. You'd probably want to roll percentile dice against precalculated chart for anyone with more than 12 Hit Points, but those characters could probably use "normal" Hit Points anyway, since they're "name" characters.

Just for the heck of it, I threw together a table (using Excel) for "stateless Hit Points". It gives a d20 roll you'd need to kill a character of N Hit Points with M points of damage:

   01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
02 11 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
03 14 08 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
04 16 11 06 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
05 17 13 09 05 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
06 18 14 11 08 04 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
07 18 15 12 10 07 04 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
08 19 16 14 11 09 06 04 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
09 19 17 14 12 10 08 05 03 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
10 19 17 15 13 11 09 07 05 03 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
11 19 17 16 14 12 10 08 06 05 03 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
12 19 18 16 14 13 11 09 08 06 04 03 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
13 19 18 16 15 13 12 10 09 07 06 04 03 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
14 20 18 17 15 14 12 11 10 08 07 05 04 02 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
15 20 18 17 16 14 13 12 10 09 08 06 05 04 02 01 01 01 01 01 01
16 20 19 17 16 15 14 12 11 10 09 07 06 05 04 02 01 01 01 01 01
17 20 19 17 16 15 14 13 12 10 09 08 07 06 05 03 02 01 01 01 01
18 20 19 18 17 15 14 13 12 11 10 09 08 07 05 04 03 02 01 01 01
19 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 10 09 08 07 06 05 04 03 02 01 01
20 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 09 08 07 06 05 04 03 02 01
21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 11 10 09 08 07 06 05 04 03 02
22 20 19 18 17 16 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 09 08 07 06 06 05 04 03
23 20 19 18 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 11 10 09 08 07 06 05 04 04
24 20 19 19 18 17 16 15 14 14 13 12 11 10 09 09 08 07 06 05 04
25 20 19 19 18 17 16 15 15 14 13 12 11 11 10 09 08 07 07 06 05
26 20 19 19 18 17 16 16 15 14 13 13 12 11 10 09 09 08 07 06 06
27 20 20 19 18 17 17 16 15 14 14 13 12 11 11 10 09 08 08 07 06
28 20 20 19 18 17 17 16 15 15 14 13 12 12 11 10 10 09 08 07 07
29 20 20 19 18 18 17 16 15 15 14 13 13 12 11 11 10 09 09 08 07
30 20 20 19 18 18 17 16 16 15 14 14 13 12 12 11 10 10 09 08 08
31 20 20 19 18 18 17 16 16 15 15 14 13 13 12 11 11 10 09 09 08
32 20 20 19 19 18 17 17 16 15 15 14 14 13 12 12 11 10 10 09 09
33 20 20 19 19 18 17 17 16 16 15 14 14 13 13 12 11 11 10 09 09
34 20 20 19 19 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 13 13 12 12 11 10 10 09
35 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 12 12 11 11 10 10
36 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 10 10
37 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 13 13 12 12 11 11 10
38 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 10
39 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11 11
40 21 20 20 19 19 18 18 17 17 16 16 15 15 14 14 13 13 12 12 11

Ideally you'd just look up your average damage across the top and compare it to your opponent's Hit Points along the left, then roll a single d20 on a hit to see if you killed your opponent or had no effect.

It'll need some tweaking, but the basic idea's there.

 

[Bhadrak]

Mmadsen,

Heh, with all this talk about a mass combat system for 3E, I had been kicking around some ideas on how to get it to work. I like the chart you did, but I'm a little confused. Are you saying a creature with an average of 1 damage can kill a 39 hp creature with a roll of a 20?

I'm currently re-reading 2E Battlesystem and hope to come up with a comparable system for 3E.

 

[Ds Da Man]

Dont get me wrong, the unit feats aren't for one character, but a unit. Hold the line would be a unit feat for standing against a tougher opponet charging. Hot shots would like a plus one to attack for archery units. As the unit gains in experience, it could also gain in feats and abilities, same as your regular characters. And a PC in charge of a unit could boost saves vs. fear, and if that character has leadership, his units could become even better, etc., etc.

 

[mmadsen]

I like the chart you did, but I'm a little confused. Are you saying a creature with an average of 1 damage can kill a 39 hp creature with a roll of a 20?

That's what the chart says, based on the simple math (and rounding) I did. (Note, that's not a 20 to-hit, but 20 to-kill. Once you hit, you roll to-kill instead of rolling damage.)

If you don't want to track Hit Points -- that is, you want a "stateless" system -- you're stuck comparing damage done (or average damage done) to Hit Points (or, more specifically, to total starting Hit Points).

If an attack typically does 10 points of damage, then a 20-hp character should take roughly two such attacks before going down. That translates to about a 50% chance per attack of taking him down. Of course, sometimes he'll die on the first hit, and sometimes he won't die until the fourth, fifth, or 20th hit, but that's the difference between tracking ablative Hit Points and just assuming an N% chance of killing the guy.

So, given the rounding errors of the chart above, a guy who averages just one point of damage per attack has a 5% chance of delivering the finishing blow to that Ogre Mage -- if he hits.

Or we could use a percentile table, which I considered, and give him closer to a 1-in-39 chance. Since our goal is simplicity, not accuracy, I went with d20 and some rounding errors.