In praise of 1 minute/level spells

[MerricB]

A little while ago, Monte Cook made some excellent points about why 1 minute/level spells are bad. However, there is some cases where I consider them far superior to the suggested 1 round/level variants - and this is especially for the case of a caster of 1st through 4th level.

If one considers the revised Bull's Strength spell, at 3rd level the poor caster only gets 2 rounds of use out of it if they cast it upon themselves - hardly worthwhile, really. If one considers a typical D&D combat to last from 3-8 rounds, that's a fairly minor effect.

The 1 minute/level spells will last all of that combat. This is good.

It is quite possible that they would have been better to be set as a duration of "1 minute" or "2 minutes", so that the possibility of running to the next combat didn't occur.

However, it does allow them to be used for some non-combat uses that may take longer than 1 minute. Enhancing the searching of a room, for instance. (With a duration of a mere 1 minute, you cannot "Take 20", for instance).

Conversely, 10 minutes/level is a significant amount of time, and can be basically the entire adventure for many scenarios - especially with an Extend Spell feat and a 10th level wizard. (3 hours? We should be able to finish it by then! )

The new durations of the buff spells basically say "1 encounter", and take into account the possibility that the encounter would be just a single combat - some other forms of challenge are possible.

Well - any problems with my reasoning?

Cheers!

 

[Shard O'Glase]

well I never had ahuge issue with 1 min/level spells in general and yes on 1/2 caster level types it takes a while for a round absed spell t last its expected duration of 1 fight, so for them at elast the 1 min/level spells really work. The problem is for the ones debated at 1/min a level under most circumstances they are underpowered for there level.

The damage you might get form a str buff doesn't = the direct damage you get from other spells.

The Dex benefits you get don't equal the benefits you'd get from other AC boosts, and the other dex benefits don't close the gap enough and somehow make it one spell level higher.

Heck even blur which sucks by the way might help you more than an endurance spell will on the defense side.

So sure there is a place for 1min/level spells the buff spells at level 2 just isn't one of them.

 

[Destil]

I would have been a lot happier with this change if they had made the bonus +6 rather than +4... that would be more worthwhile. If anything the bonus should scale a bit, from +2 to +6 around 11th level IMHO.

Of course I think simply giving them a 10 min/level duration is more reasonable. It's not the entire day by any means and solves the issue of a sorcerer throwing around extended, extended, extended, extended, extended, extended, extended, versions of this spell at some point before going to sleep to use up any left over spell-slots...

 

[Dimwhit]

This is a good a topic as any to post this though. Changing the buff spells, as well as screwing spell focus and many of the other Wizard-hosing changes, seems to be an attempt at preventing the munchkins and twinks who abuse all the rules.

And that's the problem with 3.5. You should never alter a system based on how the abusers play it, because they'll always find a way to do it. You should base the rules of the game on the average player who enjoys all aspects of the game and isn't a munchkin. Doing 3.5 the way they have, I think they're ruining it for the non-munchkin.

My two coppers.

 

[Jalkain]

And that's the problem with 3.5. You should never alter a system based on how the abusers play it, because they'll always find a way to do it. You should base the rules of the game on the average player who enjoys all aspects of the game and isn't a munchkin. Doing 3.5 the way they have, I think they're ruining it for the non-munchkin.

I've heard this opinion a lot, and I think that a lot of people are now taking this to be accepted wisdom. WotC are modifying core rules to avoid abuses of certain PrC and feats, apparently. Well I ask you this...

Where has this come from? Have WotC issued a statement saying 'due to the (Incantatrix/Red wizard/Archmage/insert broken PrC here) being abused, we are altering the rules to penalise 'average' players?'

I suspect not. Take a look at the first couple of sentences that I've quoted above, and ask yourself why so many people are already talking about 3.5e as if it was released months ago? I know we've got lots of details already, but it's not as if many of the doomsayers out there have had a chance to properly playtest them yet. Nor will they ever in many cases, since of course they have already written their 3.5 house rules.

 

[ForceUser]

A little while ago, Monte Cook made some excellent points about why 1 minute/level spells are bad. However, there is some cases where I consider them far superior to the suggested 1 round/level variants - and this is especially for the case of a caster of 1st through 4th level.

That's a good point.

If one considers the revised Bull's Strength spell, at 3rd level the poor caster only gets 2 rounds of use out of it if they cast it upon themselves - hardly worthwhile, really. If one considers a typical D&D combat to last from 3-8 rounds, that's a fairly minor effect.

The 1 minute/level spells will last all of that combat. This is good.

It is quite possible that they would have been better to be set as a duration of "1 minute" or "2 minutes", so that the possibility of running to the next combat didn't occur.

However, it does allow them to be used for some non-combat uses that may take longer than 1 minute. Enhancing the searching of a room, for instance. (With a duration of a mere 1 minute, you cannot "Take 20", for instance).

I wouldn't have minded if the animal buff spells had all been changed to a flat duration of 1 minute, as with divine favor. One minute per level makes for a useless spell for my 12th-level cleric, who uses extended bull's strength and endurance on a daily basis rather than buying stat buffing items. That said, I don't particularly have a problem with the change; it frees up two 3rd-level spells slots, and that is not insignificant. The bright light at the end of the tunnel in 3.5, though, is the mass versions of the animal buffs. Mass bear's endurance at the beginning of the fight - that I can get into.

Conversely, 10 minutes/level is a significant amount of time, and can be basically the entire adventure for many scenarios - especially with an Extend Spell feat and a 10th level wizard. (3 hours? We should be able to finish it by then! )

The new durations of the buff spells basically say "1 encounter", and take into account the possibility that the encounter would be just a single combat - some other forms of challenge are possible.

Well - any problems with my reasoning?

Cheers!

I think the 10 min/level buff spells tend to be my least favorite, but that is mostly because of my DMs. They often do dick things like connect two sections of a dungeon with miles of tunnels (DM: "Two hours later, you arrive at a massive door...") or space out wilderness encounters just enough so your "10s" run out right before the next encounter.

I see your point for the usefulness of 1 min/level animal buffs for low level casters, as opposed to 1 round/level, but overall I am not a fan of 1 min/level buffs. In the games I play in we don't rush through places trying to get to the next encounter before our buffs run out, so that usually means that the "1s" are one-encounter spells. This is only annoying if more encounters follow later in the day when I am conveniently out of buff spells - as tends to happen in the games I play. I will miss the security blanket of hour/level stat buffs, and I will grumble at having to shell out the money for stat items, but overall I can be objective enough to agree that this is a good change for the game.

Now go read my story hour!

 

[Zogg]

I have to say I don't mind the change at all. Sure, a 3rd level cleric might like it if the buff spells lasted a little longer, but by 10th level you should really not be all that worried.

In 3E.....Eric the Cleric wakes up from a solid 8 hours of sleep. After saying his prayers to his god, he casts 'bull's strength' and 'endurance' and is ready to start his adventure for the day...

In 3.5E....Eric the Cleric has to actually *think* and *use strategy* before casting that bull's strength/endurance. Perhaps after the rogue has scouted out a camp of ogres a short distance ahead he'll think "now might be a good time to buff". The buff spells actually become more valuable and less of a automatic "good morning" spell.

I think this change.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

I suspect not. Take a look at the first couple of sentences that I've quoted above, and ask yourself why so many people are already talking about 3.5e as if it was released months ago? I know we've got lots of details already, but it's not as if many of the doomsayers out there have had a chance to properly playtest them yet. Nor will they ever in many cases, since of course they have already written their 3.5 house rules.

I used to agree with you until I read an interview with Monte where he stated that the 3.5 revision was released more for financials/marketing reasons than actual problems with 3.0.

So... *raise my 'What Dimwhit said' flag*

 

[Shard O'Glase]

I have to say I don't mind the change at all. Sure, a 3rd level cleric might like it if the buff spells lasted a little longer, but by 10th level you should really not be all that worried.

In 3E.....Eric the Cleric wakes up from a solid 8 hours of sleep. After saying his prayers to his god, he casts 'bull's strength' and 'endurance' and is ready to start his adventure for the day...

In 3.5E....Eric the Cleric has to actually *think* and *use strategy* before casting that bull's strength/endurance. Perhaps after the rogue has scouted out a camp of ogres a short distance ahead he'll think "now might be a good time to buff". The buff spells actually become more valuable and less of a automatic "good morning" spell.

I think this change.

if you think and use strategy you'll never prepare these sucky spells.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I agree.

10 min/level would have been a perfectly fine fix. The spells can't be Empowered any more, after all, and they can be Extended only once. A 3rd-level spell slot from a 12th-level caster would then net you 4 hours of buff spell; perfectly reasonable for a nice brief dungeon crawl or fortress assault.