D&D 5E In Search Of: The 5e Dungeon Master's Guide

[Xamnam]

That wouldn't reduce the buy in cost? That's still $150 MSRP for the full game while knowing nothing about what you are buying (Which is just another reason the starter sets make a better onboard ramp for new players). Also how would they know they don't need to read anything else if they are new?

This is exactly why I want the How to DM/be a Player advice folded into the PHB. Then everything you need to confidently start is in the one book. I certainly don't think people should need to buy all three books to start. feel pressured to buy all three books before they've even played, or understand the game.

In a perfect world, the DMG is renamed the Dungeon Master's Toolkit. But they're not going to do that.

 

[Xamnam]

I wonder if you would have had any insurmountable issues if you had run it straight out the box... You chose to read the core books beforehand so there's no way to objectively say.

I think I would have been fine, but I also think I would have floundered more, and everyone would not have had as good a time as they did. But, there is no knowing, you are correct.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You are. Go back and look at nearly all your replies in this thread. You have responded mostly to both @Xamnam and @pointofyou. Both made suggestions about things that could be included to make the DMG more new user friendly, and you've shot each of them down, mostly in favor of having such in a starter set.

But why? Why can't the DMG be made more new user friendly? Even in a world that also contains a starter set?

What's lost if that happens?

What's lost is page count that could be used for more rule material.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I expect the core three D&D manuals to be the full core game. Not the advanced version next step after the starter set, but the complete core game on its own. A player I expect to only need the PH.

I think starter sets are great as a complete in itself limited intro, showing some select core options and a sample adventure that can be run out of the box without getting anything else. It is a decent way for someone wanting to try the game out.

Nothing wrong with going from the starter set to the full books, but I expect the core books to be all you need. I don't expect D&D to require a starter set before going to the actual core game.

It doesn't require it. Plenty of people went straight to the core three and did just fine. The Starter Set is an alternative if you want something built specifically to be a simple on-ramp.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I basically agree, though I think a potential future dmg could be better organized as a toolbox. For example, there are tables related to dungeon creation scattered among the "creating adventures," "adventure environments," and "random dungeons" sections. There is a section on "traps" that is not adjacent to any of those sections on dungeons. Xanathar's guide did a better job in terms of providing tools--the sections on (actual) tool proficiencies, downtime, magic items, common magic items, traps, and the names are all helpful, in some cases even if you aren't running 5e.

Some of the actual rules in the 5e dmg are a bit dubious. Some of this seems to be to appeal to fans of older editions. For example, on p. 127: "It's not unusual for adventurers--especially after 10th level--to gain possession of a castle, a tavern, or another piece of property. They might buy it with their hard-won loot, take it by force, obtain it in a lucky draw from a deck of many things, or aquire it by other means." Really? How many 5e games features playing spending 20gp per day on maintaining an Abbey with 5 "skilled hirelings" and 25 "untrained hirelings"? And if you are going to run that type of game, the page or so of info here is not really adequate; you'll go to 3rd party supplements like the MCDM stuff.

So, yes, it is a toolkit in that sense, but it's a bit of a Jack of All Trades--the bard of the core books!

And then the layout. It's borderline unreadable, which is part of why no one reads it. Like, awarding experience is a core duty of a DM; it should be more than 2 columns of text long. And that text shouldn't be split across two pages and confusedly sitting next to the "madness" tables!


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I don't see a problem with some of the DMG being designed to appeal to fans of previous editions. I'm a fan of previous editions.

 

[Imaro]

I am running for a couple of players new to the game, and they both showed up with PHBs and having watched some livestreams. They've done fine but they seem to find themselves stumbling over the rules in ways I don't think they would if they'd come to the game through the books.

Do you think it'd be better if new DMs found the DMG worth reading? I am as a rule unimpressed with the online resources I've looked at.

I think DM'ing in general has some barriers that need to be dealt with before that question can be answered in yes or no form. Like @Xamnam said in an earlier post... Should brand new people who want to DM be expected to spring $150 vs $50 especially not knowing what DM'ing entails? I think there are some really good online resources, especially in the form of videos that just breakdown the rules and for things like designing an adventure, table rules, etc. I guess my question is again... what specifically are you looking for when it comes to new DM instruction. I feel you have a specific picture in your head and we may not be aligned on what that is. Without that I can't really judge the online resources in a way that;s meaningful for what you are looking for.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Like I said before, I used LMoP, I'm glad I did, it was fantastic for what I was looking for, I just viewed it as an small contained adventure as opposed to a tutorial. Still took me 22 sessions to get through all of it.

22 sessions! That is great roleplaying value for the starter set.
Honestly what I love is how the community here and other places provides DMs so much free advice and ideas to expand and grow modules and adventure paths. And this is all before DMsGuild content.

 

[Maxperson]

Given that I think the biggest problem with the DMG is that it was written with the presumption everyone reading it had been playing D&D for a decade or two it should be no surprise I do not see this as an obvious outcome.

You have an official quote you can give us for that claim I'm sure.

 

[Xamnam]

22 sessions! That is great roleplaying value for the starter set.
Honestly what I love is how the community here and other places provides DMs so much free advice and ideas to expand and grow modules and adventure paths. And this is all before DMsGuild content.

Heh, yeah, I know I've seen people talk about getting through it in just 6-8, but that boggles my mind. And it's not like our sessions were short, usually around three hours. I do think I had a pretty great table, especially given that 3 out of the 5 were new. The only major addition of out-of-book content was a trip to Neverwinter, but even that only added about two sessions to the total.

 

[pointofyou]

I think DM'ing in general has some barriers that need to be dealt with before that question can be answered in yes or no form. Like @Xamnam said in an earlier post... Should brand new people who want to DM be expected to spring $150 vs $50 especially not knowing what DM'ing entails? I think there are some really good online resources, especially in the form of videos that just breakdown the rules and for things like designing an adventure, table rules, etc. I guess my question is again... what specifically are you looking for when it comes to new DM instruction. I feel you have a specific picture in your head and we may not be aligned on what that is. Without that I can't really judge the online resources in a way that;s meaningful for what you are looking for.

There are a few specific things I want.

I want the book to be laid out and organized so actual people can actually read and use it. An actual functional index would be revelatory.

I want a basic explanation of what people usually expect from the game as players. This might need some granularity and some acknowledgment that people sometimes want and expect different things. It should probably include some specific advice for meeting those expectations.

I want some specific commentary on why a DM would run one way as opposed to another. This doesn't need to be judgmental but rather than just telling the new DM they can run in these ways it seems useful to explain at least some of why people run those ways.

I want the effects of and reasoning behind optional rules explained. I'd strongly prefer for those optional rules to have actual thought put into them and I'd strongly prefer for the explanations I want to actually reflect the effects of the optional rules on play.

I want instruction on worldbuilding to focus on getting the most play out of the least work and getting quickly to play. It's fine to work out complicated geography and functional calendars but I do not believe those things are exactly necessary to start play. Telling new DMs to figure out some broad strokes of the setting then some specifics of where play starts then fill things in as needed would be nice. An example of doing so with thought processes explained would be superb.