D&D 5E (2014) In Search Of: The 5e Dungeon Master's Guide

[Voadam]

93 – 94 Three tables- snow, frost, and ice.

Why are they labelled Schnai, Fruzti, and Cruski?

 

[el-remmen]

The Dungeon Master's Reference would be a better name than "guide." I have never thought of it as a cover to cover kind of book, but a looking things up as they become relevant kind of book. I have actually read very little of the 5E DMG (despite running 5E since 2019) and am much more likely to refer to the 1E DMG for my questions. I did look up Intelligent Weapons the other day, but also looked at those sections in the 2E and 1E DMG's for ideas.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Why are they labelled Schnai, Fruzti, and Cruski?

So one day, I was jus' hangin' with my party, adventurin' in Greyhawk. And I was talking to my friend, Olaf the Somewhat Stout. And we were goin' north in the Crystalmist Mountains to get to the Barrier Peaks.

And I said to Olaf, Hey, looks like we are going to pass the Duchy on the Geoff-hand side.

 

[Malmuria]

ight there we see both the great advantage as well as the disadvantage of the DMG. On the one hand, as an actual text to prescribe a single way to play, or even for someone who has never played a single game of D&D (or seen a single game of D&D) to pick it up and start playing? It doesn't work ... at all. A brand new DM who never played, was unaware of youtube or twitch, and didn't get a starter set ... well, they would have little to no idea how to choose their own favored method to roll dice, or to choose the religion for their campaign setting. On the other hand, it served a much more important purpose - it provided both a toolbox, as well as being open-ended to allow most people to play D&D the way that they wanted to. Because the DMG didn't prescribe a playstyle, it also couldn't be weaponized against people that don't play that way!

I basically agree, though I think a potential future dmg could be better organized as a toolbox. For example, there are tables related to dungeon creation scattered among the "creating adventures," "adventure environments," and "random dungeons" sections. There is a section on "traps" that is not adjacent to any of those sections on dungeons. Xanathar's guide did a better job in terms of providing tools--the sections on (actual) tool proficiencies, downtime, magic items, common magic items, traps, and the names are all helpful, in some cases even if you aren't running 5e.

Some of the actual rules in the 5e dmg are a bit dubious. Some of this seems to be to appeal to fans of older editions. For example, on p. 127: "It's not unusual for adventurers--especially after 10th level--to gain possession of a castle, a tavern, or another piece of property. They might buy it with their hard-won loot, take it by force, obtain it in a lucky draw from a deck of many things, or aquire it by other means." Really? How many 5e games features playing spending 20gp per day on maintaining an Abbey with 5 "skilled hirelings" and 25 "untrained hirelings"? And if you are going to run that type of game, the page or so of info here is not really adequate; you'll go to 3rd party supplements like the MCDM stuff.

So, yes, it is a toolkit in that sense, but it's a bit of a Jack of All Trades--the bard of the core books!

And then the layout. It's borderline unreadable, which is part of why no one reads it. Like, awarding experience is a core duty of a DM; it should be more than 2 columns of text long. And that text shouldn't be split across two pages and confusedly sitting next to the "madness" tables!

 

[el-remmen]

I personally am willing to accept that DMing is more a tradition that is handed down through play than set of rules that can be learned from books. That may not be a great business model, but the heck do I care about business models? At least these days there are countless videos and actual-play streams from which to help pick up and shape those traditions for your own DMing and aren't limited to the handful of weirdos in your community who run games or having the luck of having access to a con.

 

[pointofyou]

Yes we all have anecdotal evidence that X happened... but unless you can say that's the norm how do you know it's not working as intended? Nothing is 100% and I can't argue against what you've seen but unless there's a reason to believe that the method in which 5e creates DM's is flawed... that's all it is, anecdotal.

Also: I personally think Essentials is a much better starter set for players and DM's.

EDIT: Also... running an adventure is still DM'ing. You may not like it but plenty of people do enjoy running their games that way, and not just with D&D.

I would suggest to you that there are people who want to DM who do not want to run published adventures. Some of those people are almost certainly new to D&D or to the hobby in general. I think it would be better if the DMG were actually helpful to those people.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Asking what the point of the starter set is when the DMG is supposed to serve the purpose of introducing new DM's into the game isn't shooting it down, it's asking a question. If I have product A that serves the purpose of X... what is the purpose of Product A if I then make Product C also serve that purpose... also what do I then loose in product C in order for it to better serve that purpose?

The starter set is an inexpensive way to introduce people to the game. It does focus on some basics, for sure. I don't think its existence means that we can then ignore the need for the manuals to help people learn the game.

As for what they lose in the DMG by trying to help new DMs? Nothing. The book already is doing that, it just does so poorly.

More clear sure... more specific to who and what? It's got a wide audience to address how do you make it more specific without alienating some of that audience?

More specific in its guidance. Like if it offers a goal, then give specific information about how to achieve that goal. Give a list of best practices to deliver that experience in play.

 

[pointofyou]

Yes. DMing isn't all that difficult, and the step from newbie to no longer being a beginner really isn't that big.

And Lost Mine is structured extremely well to serve as a guide for a DM taking that step.


That's as much a factor of the 5e DMG being largely useless as anything else.

The current DMG manages to be useless to both experienced DMs and new ones. Fixing both of those seems like a reasonable thing to want.

I did not find DMing to be all that difficult to pick up either but I played with some very good DMs and some very bad ones. I had a spread of things to look at to figure out what I wanted to do.

 

[Voadam]

And I said to Olaf, Hey, looks like we are going to pass the Duchy on the Geoff-hand side.

I don't think ten-year old me was the only one who was unsure whether that fantasy kingdom name was intended to be pronounced soft or hard G "Gee Off".

 

[Imaro]

I would suggest to you that there are people who want to DM who do not want to run published adventures. Some of those people are almost certainly new to D&D or to the hobby in general. I think it would be better if the DMG were actually helpful to those people.

I think there are a ton of people learning the game from the core books and I don't think you or anyone else has the data to determine whether they did or didn't serve the purpose adequately. Can they be improved, sure... nothing in the world is 100% but there's this idea that the 5e corebooks don't teach the game well and nothing except anecdotal evidence and speculation seems to support that.