In your campaign, can the PCs "lose"

[ThatGuyThere]

This is a conversation my players and I had, when they neglected a plot and an BBEG became waaaay too strong for them to handle. They were surprised and shaken by the events.

In the discussion, I made it clear that (1) there was always a way to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, and (2) without the chance of failure, success is meaningless.

They agreed with point (2) pretty readily (although they were pessimistic about point (1)). Since then, they've paid a lot more attention to the BBEGs plot(s), making sure they either they're not going to succeed (and yes, I have evil guys who try stuff that's doomed to failure), or that they have time to foil it.

All of that said, we're ultimately playing the game to enjoy a heroic fantasy. It's not a competition between players and DMs - if it was, DMs would win. The *story* is most interesting when the heroes have a *chance* and *consequence* of losing - and least interesting when they do. Dangerous balancing act, that...

[Note: They ultimately did foil the BBEG, by overcoming one of his Lieutenants and slowing his "war machine" down for long enough to level a few times before facing him. The fact that they were originally "doomed to lose" made the victory that much sweeter.]

 

[hong]

My players both lose and die, not always at the same time. A lot of times they redefine "lost" as "incomplete victory" though.

For instance, a goblin horde led by demon-worshiping priests invade a region. The party warns several nearby manors, prevents at least two manors from being overrun, and stops a plague the goblins had infected the survivors with. The goblins loot much of the countryside, inflict serious wounds on many of the defenders, and manage to utterly plunder one estate.

Who won? The goblins got less loot than they would have without the players but they still got a great haul, far more than any past attempts. The players stopped the goblin invasion. There was a lot of property damage, hundreds of peasants were taken as slaves (some sacrificed to the demons), and several score of guards were cut down in the defense. Hard to say you "won" that, even if you didn't "lose."

They refuse to acknowledge their responsibility in a godling getting loose from his prison causing a massive influx of undead across the planet. That, in my book, is a "lose." When an entire country comes under the control of liches & vampires, that's a lose. When martial law is declared planet wide for nearly two years while the militias deal with the 10,000-strong mobs of zombies, skeletons, and ghouls, that qualifies as a "lose." When necropoli literally become "cities of the dead" requiring military cordons, you've got a "lose."

You sound rather bitter. Don't you like losing?

 

[Graybeard]

In a campaign I played in, the PCs started off trying to stop a step brother taking over a kingdom from the rightful king. It evolved into a bigger fight against evil creatures who wanted to block out the sun. Since then, the evil creatures have taken over much of the world but they have not yet succeeded in blocking out the sun. The PCs then joined freedom fighters in attempting to turn the tide. It was lots of fun.

In the campaign I run, the PCs can lose battles. If they fail completely, it means new heads of countries, etc. but no end of the world. Just new enemies to fight against.

 

[hong]

[Note: They ultimately did foil the BBEG, by overcoming one of his Lieutenants and slowing his "war machine" down for long enough to level a few times before facing him. The fact that they were originally "doomed to lose" made the victory that much sweeter.]

"Nooo!!! Don't kill the BBEG now! If you do, we'll never make 20th level!"

 

[kensanata]

How can you win or loose at a social event?

If there's no possibility that the players can lose, then in what sense are you playing a game?

Well, story telling, the companionship, small successes and failures -- it's not strictly a game, it's entertainment, a social event. How can you win or loose at a party or talking with friends? It depends on the people playing the game.

 

[robberbaron]

kigmatzomat: Sounds like you are taking your campaign much more seriously than your players are.

My players generally don't 'lose': if the job gets done and some of them are still alive it's a win.
Does that mean I am setting them inadequate challenges or just that, as a group, their intelligence eclipses my imagination?

 

[hong]

Well, story telling, the companionship, small successes and failures -- it's not strictly a game, it's entertainment, a social event. How can you win or loose at a party or talking with friends? It depends on the people playing the game.

More precisely, the players determine their own victory conditions. Eg a powergamer might want to go as long as possible without dying; a buttkicker might want a kill count higher than anyone else's; a storyteller might want to defeat the BBEG regardless of personal cost; etc. Where it really gets interesting is when these victory conditions come into conflict.

 

[Crothian]

Ya, and they lose quite a bit. Like others losing is not always dying and in fact rarely is. It is just coming out on the bad side of a situation.

 

[kigmatzomat]

You sound rather bitter. Don't you like losing?

Oh as a DM I'm fine with the way things turned out; I've got plot material for years. Between the undead who don't want to be back on the mortal coil to the only-recently sentient godling, this is an excellent event that drives the game in a direction I had never, ever contemplated. It also provided plenty of justification for the PCs to go extra-planar to try and gain assistance, something I'd needed for my over-arching plot but hadn't figured out how to make happen.

It just gets irritating when the PC response is "I have no knowledge of what you speak, perhaps it was a figment of your imagination" to powerful, nay divine, NPCs who know exactly what the PCs did because they, or their minions, were there. At some point, the PCs will cease to be the most expedient means to deal with certain problems and will then find themselves on the pointy side of some very irritated deities.

Which is itself more plot material and grist for the mill. God, I love player-driven campaigns.

 

[DaveyJones]

Like others losing is not always dying and in fact rarely is. It is just coming out on the bad side of a situation.

so the bad side is tie-dyed?

no winning or losing (or loosing for the rouges) in the game for us. we play to have fun.