Incense of Meditation

[Pinotage]

I say no. The rules do not need to exhaustively list everything in every sentence for fear that readers will take them out of context. This is what I feel is happening here. The opposing view is taking the sentence out of context with the remainder of the paragraph and applying it exhaustively to every other domain. That's inappropriate. A general principle of understanding the rules is that they do no more or less than what they say.

Well said.

Pinotage

 

[Infiniti2000]

Another, better analogy I thought about from the flaming whip thread (better because it's not hypothetical): Do you need to light the torch to cause fire damage with it? I'm looking at just the SRD here:

Torch
A torch burns for 1 hour, clearly illuminating a 20-foot radius and providing shadowy illumination out to a 40- foot radius. If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage.

I see nothing that explicitly states you need to light it, so I assume those who feel that the incense applies to arcane spells also rule that you don't need to light a torch to use it in combat.

 

[Scion]

The rules do not need to exhaustively list everything in every sentence for fear that readers will take them out of context.

Taking what out of context exactly?

Incense of Meditation: This small rectangular block of sweet smelling incense is visually indistinguishable from nonmagical incense until lit. When it is burning, the special fragrance and pearly-hued smoke of this special incense are recognizable by anyone making a DC 15 Spellcraft check. When a divine spellcaster lights a block of incense of meditation and then spends 8 hours praying and meditating nearby, the incense enables him to prepare all his spells as though affected by the Maximize Spell feat. However, all the spells prepared in this way are at their normal level, not at three levels higher (as with the regular metamagic feat).

Each block of incense burns for 8 hours, and the effects persist for 24 hours.

Moderate enchantment; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, bless; Price 4,900 gp;Weight 1 lb.

Here it is again.

The first line merely describes what it looks like.

The second describes smell and a check to see who can recognize it.

The third one says that so long as a divine caster lights it then all of the spells he prepares are maximized.

The fourth line takes away the level cost of the feat added by the third line.

The fifth line talks about duration for the effect.

The sixth line talks about creation rules and costs.



So, again, what part are we taking out of context? only one line refers to what it is actually doing, the rest is either describing the object or setting conditions for time or creation.

If I use an adjective to describe a word, why add more things to that adjective than a pure literal reading will entail?

A literal reading however does pick out creatures who work under that heading but also might work under other headings.

A theurge is not a new type of caster divine-arcane, he is 'both' at the same time.

If you are standing next to a theurge and a straight cleric is standing down the street and you cast a spell which will point you towards the nearest divine caster it will point you towards the theurge. He is the nearest person capable of casting divine spells.

I am not sure how to make this clearer. Even in basic english if you ask for a subset then anything that fits into that subset works.

If you want a policeman but the guy next to you has two jobs, policeman and fireman, you dont just ignore him and go looking for a 'real' policeman.

If you are looking for a divine caster then anyone who casts divine spells qualifies, it doesnt matter if they have talents in other areas as well, they are still a divine caster.

 

[Pinotage]

A literal reading however does pick out creatures who work under that heading but also might work under other headings.

I am not sure how to make this clearer. Even in basic english if you ask for a subset then anything that fits into that subset works.

If you are looking for a divine caster then anyone who casts divine spells qualifies, it doesnt matter if they have talents in other areas as well, they are still a divine caster.

But we're not asking for a subset. We're just using the word as is. Divine. Divine spells. Divine spellcaster. Where is the arcane in that? Language wise. Forget game knowledge. Forget Theurges. Language wise the literal reading is divine only.

I agree that if we were asking for a subset your RAW reading would be correct, although as mentioned earlier, I'm in favour of interpreting intent as well.

If you're asking for a subset, couldn't I put the words meditation, prayer, and incense as a subset of divine spellcaster, and clain that it does not apply to arcane spells? Why are those words suddenly a subset of arcane spellcasters as well? Just because they can be, but in the majority of cases aren't? How many arcane spellcasters have you played to which meditation and prayer have ever featured?

Pinotage

 

[Scion]

But we're not asking for a subset. We're just using the word as is. Divine. Divine spells. Divine spellcaster. Where is the arcane in that? Language wise. Forget game knowledge. Forget Theurges. Language wise the literal reading is divine only.

I am afraid that this simply isnt true.

Again, if I want a policeman and ask for one then you dont just ignore the policeman/fireman. Just because he has talents in other areas does 'not' make him 'not a policeman'.

you are looking for a divine caster. This means that out of all of the creatures in existance (the full set) you are looking for a subset (likely to be less than the full set) that is able to cast divine spells.

If you want to 'further' limit the subset for people who only cast divine spells, and no other spells, then that is yet another limiting condition that is not in the initial conditions.

In order to have that you would need to have something like, 'a divine caster who cannot cast arcane spells' or something similar.

Just because you can cast spells which are not divine does not change the fact that, if you can cast divine spells, you cast divine spells.

If you're asking for a subset, couldn't I put the words meditation, prayer, and incense as a subset of divine spellcaster, and clain that it does not apply to arcane spells?

you are saying that arcane people cannot meditate or pray? Sucks for mages in forgotten realms then, they are going to be tacked onto the great wall for all eternity suffering.

How many arcane spellcasters have you played to which meditation and prayer have ever featured?

All of the religious ones. And some of the nonreligious ones when they are facing horrible odds and believe they are doomed to die.


once again however, having two professions does not mean that you dont count as having one of the two professions when asked.

 

[Pinotage]

you are looking for a divine caster. This means that out of all of the creatures in existance (the full set) you are looking for a subset (likely to be less than the full set) that is able to cast divine spells.

If you want to 'further' limit the subset for people who only cast divine spells, and no other spells, then that is yet another limiting condition that is not in the initial conditions.

In order to have that you would need to have something like, 'a divine caster who cannot cast arcane spells' or something similar.

Just because you can cast spells which are not divine does not change the fact that, if you can cast divine spells, you cast divine spells.

Again, that's an interpretation of the word, rather than a literal reading of the word. If I take a red ball, do I automatically include all the other colors that have red in them as well. Of course not. Take the word literally as it is. Divine means nothing more than divine. Looking for a subset implies subjective interpretation which is not what literal language reading is about.

All of the religious ones. And some of the nonreligious ones when they are facing horrible odds and believe they are doomed to die.

once again however, having two professions does not mean that you dont count as having one of the two professions when asked.

Sure. They can do it. But in game terms prayer and meditation are game terms associated only with divine spellcasters only. And in particular with how they prepare their spells. How exactly is that relevant to arcane spells? Because of a literal reading of _all_? If that's the case, you need to take a literal reading of divine as well.

In any event, it doesn't look like we're going to agree on this. It's interesting, though.

Pinotage

 

[Scion]

Again, that's an interpretation of the word, rather than a literal reading of the word. If I take a red ball, do I automatically include all the other colors that have red in them as well. Of course not. Take the word literally as it is. Divine means nothing more than divine. Looking for a subset implies subjective interpretation which is not what literal language reading is about.

I am afraid that I have no real idea what you are talking about here.

The literal reading of the phrase, 'divine caster' is 'someone who casts divine spells'. There is no reason to assume that it means 'someone who can only cast divine spells'.

If I have a red ball that has very small blue dots and I call it a red ball am I correct? Sure, it is a red ball. That isnt the whole case, it is actually a red ball with blue dots.

Generally for that sort of description we look for what is in the majority and describe it as such.

For other types of items we dont do that. Going back to the policeman/fireman guy, it doesnt matter to me if he only works as a policeman 2 days a week and a fireman the other 5 days, he will work for either job I need him for in an emergency.

A literal reading of 'divine caster' is simply 'someone who can cast divine spells'. I think that you really have to stretch the wording horribly out of shape to read 'divine caster' as 'someone who can only cast divine spells'. That is much too limiting based on what it says.

Sure. They can do it. But in game terms prayer and meditation are game terms associated only with divine spellcasters only.

So you are saying that since rest is described as something that casters must do to prepare spells then they are the only ones who must rest?

No, anyone can pray and meditate. But in order to regain spells a divine caster must do these actions at a certain time of day in a specific way. This does not limit doing it at any other time, or for any other character, they just wont gain spells from it.


I just dont understand though. You are saying that a subset is not a subset and that something which says one thing actually means the most restrictive case possible and means that in the real world. But this just isnt the case as far as I can tell.

I know a guy with two degrees, physics and engineering. Does this mean that you cannot call him a physicist? no, he is a physicist. Does this mean you cannot call him an engineer? no, he is an engineer. Is he both? yes.

But, he can get a job that only phsycists can get, even if they dont need an engineer. He can get a job that only an engineer can get, even if they dont need a physicist. Plus he can get a job that needs someone who can do both.

Just because he is both does not mean that he does not count as either. He counts as each one and both, not just both.

This is as real world as you can get. If I ask for a physicist he is perfectly in the clear to raise his hand, also being an engineer does not preclude him from being a physicist.

 

[Pinotage]

I am afraid that I have no real idea what you are talking about here.

Apologies for now being clear, then.

The literal reading of the phrase, 'divine caster' is 'someone who casts divine spells'. There is no reason to assume that it means 'someone who can only cast divine spells'.

There's also no reason to assume it doesn't mean someone who can only cast divine spells.

If I have a red ball that has very small blue dots and I call it a red ball am I correct? Sure, it is a red ball. That isnt the whole case, it is actually a red ball with blue dots.

You've just added some blue dots. The phrase 'red ball' never said anything about blue dots. Why are you adding them?

Generally for that sort of description we look for what is in the majority and describe it as such.

We're not talking that kind of description. We're talking a red ball. Why do all your red balls have other colors in them?

For other types of items we dont do that.

That's convenient.

Going back to the policeman/fireman guy, it doesnt matter to me if he only works as a policeman 2 days a week and a fireman the other 5 days, he will work for either job I need him for in an emergency.

But if this chap comes up to me and says 'I'm a fireman', why would you assume that he's a policeman as well? If a divine spellcaster comes up to you and says, 'I'm a divine spellcaster' why do you assume that he also casts arcane spells? If a divine spellcaster comes up to you and says 'I'm a divine spellcaster, I pray for my spells and meditate for them when I prepare for them' how do you assume he's an arcane spellcaster as well? If the text says words like 'prayer, divine, meditate' why do you assume it includes arcane spells as well?

So you are saying that since rest is described as something that casters must do to prepare spells then they are the only ones who must rest?

No. I'm saying that divine, prayer, meditation, prepare are all game terms directly related to preparing divine spells. Connect the dots. Sure, they can apply to arcane casters as well, but just as fluff, not game mechanics. It's not a stretch to see that the incense is meant for divine casters only if you look at game mechanic buzz words in the description of the item.

I know a guy with two degrees, physics and engineering. Does this mean that you cannot call him a physicist? no, he is a physicist. Does this mean you cannot call him an engineer? no, he is an engineer. Is he both? yes.[</QUOTE]

Sure, but in your analogy if he comes up to me and says 'I'm a engineer', why would I assume he's something else as well?

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

Scion, let's take your fireman/policeman analogy even further. The fireman comes up to you and says, "I'm a fireman, I put fires out, I drive around in a big truck, and I slide down poles. Whenever I can I help people."

Sure, all that can apply to a policeman as well, but those are buzz words normally associated with fireman, so I wouldn't dream of saying that he's a policeman as well.

Paraphrased:

A divine spellcaster when praying and meditating by an incense can prepare all his spells as if with the Maximise Spell feat.

Sound familiar. Lots of divine buzz words in there. There's no reason to believe its arcane as well.

Pinotage

 

[Scion]

There's also no reason to assume it doesn't mean someone who can only cast divine spells.

Sure there is, common useage.

You've just added some blue dots. The phrase 'red ball' never said anything about blue dots. Why are you adding them?

Because it is still a red ball. Just because it has blue dots doesnt change that.

We're not talking that kind of description. We're talking a red ball. Why do all your red balls have other colors in them?

not all, but some do. Just like not all divine casters only cast divine spells.

But if this chap comes up to me and says 'I'm a fireman', why would you assume that he's a policeman as well?

Who cares? Whatever other jobs he may or may not have are irrelevant to the situation.

In other words, it doesnt matter what his other jobs are, he is still a fireman.

Just like the divine caster, it doesnt matter if he can do other things too, he is still a divine caster.

No. I'm saying that divine, prayer, meditation, prepare are all game terms directly related to preparing divine spells.

But that is unimportant. It doesnt matter if one class uses an activity to do something 'sometimes', anyone can do it.

If you catch someone who is sitting there naked with holy symbols all around, incense burning, meditating, and praying do you automatically assume that they are a divine caster? If you do, is it warrented? Anyone can do those activities if they want to.

Sure, but in your analogy if he comes up to me and says 'I'm a engineer', why would I assume he's something else as well?

Again, why does it matter what else he is? you are the one saying that if the divine caster can cast arcane spells then he isnt a divine caster. But that isnt true.

Just like the engineer/physicist can say he is either and be correct so can the divine caster/arcane caster.

It doesnt matter that he has a different job in this case, all that matters is that he qualifies for whichever question that they ask.