Incompetent DM seeks help with powerful PC

[Zurai]

In regards to Zurai's point about having a REALLY good story to back up being a half-fiend paladin:

Hey, no problem. I hope it didn't seem like I was trying to disparage the player.

There are still mechanical problems, though, and unanswered questions.

The most important question: Is he the only gestalt character, or is the whole party gestalt?

 

[Arnwyn]

Anything that would challenge his character would outright kill the rest of the party (one of whom is only level 7).

Well, no wonder, since he's higher level than the rest of the party while being mechanically wrong. The results are speaking for themselves!

 

[Slife]

If you want to sneakily balance the levels, use a Deck of Many things and fudge the results. Suddenly Mr. McFiend is three levels lower and everyone else has gained a couple of levels.

Of course, that might not be the best idea in terms of the social contract of the table...

 

[Spatula]

Half-fiend isn't that great of a powergaming choice anyway, aside from the stat boosts - many of the spell-like abilities are explicitly [Evil] spells, which a paladin could not use, without also losing his class abilities.

 

[KrazyHades]

The gestalt rules can be found here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

Broadly speaking, the two character levels should be the same (so Paladin 5 / Rogue 5) and if the LA is +4 then he's effectively a 9th level character (which I assume must make the 7th level player feel a bit let down).

If he's a Paladin 8 / Rogue 5 half-fiend, either he's not a gestalt (in which case he's effectively a 17th level character) or he is a gestalt and he's effectively a 12th or 13th level character. So, he needs to redo his character and bring it in line with the rest.

I think you need to check over the gestalt rules, and possibly ask the whole group to rework their characters to bring them in line - if that means upping the power of some characters to balance out the party then it might help everything.

In terms of in-game stuff, I'd certainly have the biggest, baddest enemies target the character - he's charismatic and scary looking!

That's true, but the thread-starter hasn't replied to this yet (that's why I'm quoting it here).
He CANNOT be a pally 8/rogue 5 half fiend gestalt. He CAN be a Pally 5/Rogue5 half-fiend gestalt, with an effective level of 10 or 11.

I'm getting the feeling that either you mis-typed something, or you meant multiclass instead of gestalt. If neither of these is the case, then your player is taking advantage of your unfamiliarity with the gestalt rules.

 

[Fieari]

Just a note, when we say that a half fiend Pal5//Rog5 is ECL 10 or 11, we mean that gestalt itself adds +1 or 2 LA, but your entire part has that, so don't worry too much. You can even give them XP for ECL9 if you want, but know that they are more powerful than normal characters, so balance monsters against the true ECL. I'd say 11, myself.

 

[Ravilah]

Do the gestalt rules overtly explain that the level adjust to templates applies to both gestalt classes? I approached the player about lowering his character to a pal5/rog5, and he said that the rules are rather ambiguous on this point.

He then pointed out that if a character is level 3 or 4, then that character would get no benefit from gestalt levels and would therefore be weaker than the non-templated characters. Is that the case?

Overall, I think he's taken umbrage at being nerfed. But I didn't want to try to nerf him underhandedly, so I just approached him about it (We ARE best friends after all).

Any rebuttals to his argument?

 

[szilard]

Any rebuttals to his argument?

The rule as written is ambiguous.

Gestalt classes are optional, and DM's can interpret them as they wish.

That said, applying an LA to only one side of a gestalt character results in brokenness (as you have noticed). Assuming that LA +3 is equal to three levels of, say, rogue... you get EVERYTHING from your LA if you put it on one side of the gestalt, but NOT everything from the rogue (you don't get its BAB boost, hit dice, and poor saves). Therefore, adding LA to only one side is broken.

If you'd like to see an example of this that is clearer than a half-fiend, look at the Pixie... at +4 LA. Imagine a Wizard 7/Rogue 3 Pixie . Now compare that to a Wizard 7/Rogue 7 halfling. Are they even close? If they're balanced, they should be.

-Stuart

 

[Fieari]

Here's the reason that LA needs to apply to BOTH sides of the gestalt.

The biggest, most important resource in the game is not hitpoints or spells or BAB or whatnot. It's actions. Gestalt does not give you more actions. Gestalt gives you more things you can do, but you can still only do one of them a turn, and each thing you can do is only as good as the level you are at.

Racial LA, on the other hand, doesn't give you breadth. It gives you depth. Racial LA increases what you're already good at. An ogre fighter makes the fighter better at hitting by giving more strength. It's not a fighter with more options, it's a better fighter.

Classes don't give stat bonuses. Racial LA does.

 

[Jubilee]

Do the gestalt rules overtly explain that the level adjust to templates applies to both gestalt classes? I approached the player about lowering his character to a pal5/rog5, and he said that the rules are rather ambiguous on this point.

He then pointed out that if a character is level 3 or 4, then that character would get no benefit from gestalt levels and would therefore be weaker than the non-templated characters. Is that the case?

Overall, I think he's taken umbrage at being nerfed. But I didn't want to try to nerf him underhandedly, so I just approached him about it (We ARE best friends after all).

Any rebuttals to his argument?

His character is negatively affecting your ability to make the game fun for everyone, including him and you. What more argument is needed, if you are best friends? If you don't want to make him change, though, then I'd go with boosting everyone else to match his power.

/ali