Increased magic across the board?

[Gargoyle]

I think you'll have more fun (and get better results) if you stick with your groove for, say... the next 8 months, and maybe then look at those chapters. It'll be like you're learning all-new combat subsystems either way, why not do it with 4E where those rules are being rewritten for ease of play?

I agree. These are the type of systems that WoTC is touting as most improved in 4E, and while I think learning them is not too bad if you use them a lot, I can't say that they are fun.

 

[Cadfan]

I don't want characters to automatically have magical powers if previously they were non magical characters.

I do want characters to have the option to obtain magical powers even if they were previously non magical characters.

"All fighters have magical powers now." = bad.
"Fighters have an effective route to advance in that will let them wield magic." = good.

 

[mmadsen]

As far as I gather, most people worried about the increased magic comment don't have a problem with the power level, but with the atmosphere.

An ability that adds +1d6 fire damage for one attack is no more powerful than an ability that adds +1d6 physical damage for on attack. In fact, it's less, since it's easier to protect yourself from fire.

But many people (myself included) feel that the latter is a much more appropriate power for a low level fighter, mostly as a matter of taste.

Excellent point.

 

[Gargoyle]

While I was pleasantly surprised to hear 4e will (supposedly) move away from the "You are your magic items" motif that's plagued D&D, I was immediately discouraged to hear "magic is increased across the board" (or something along those lines). Am I the only one who thinks the last thing D&D needs is more magic saturating the game?

There is overt magic, ala fireballs and healing wounds instantly and the Bo9S's desert wind discipline(fire powers), and covert magic, like Bryon's example of holding one's breath for days or a monk's various ki powers, and Bo9s' Iron Heart discipline (stuff like increased speed, resisting a spell effect, or disarming).

I can understand not enjoying the idea of a fighter casting spells. I personally do not like even paladins and rangers casting spells. But I think WOTC is adding more implicit magic across the board, not the fireball flinging stuff, but more like the covert stuff that isn't spell casting as much as it is bending the reality of what is an inherently magical world to your will through skill and experience.

If that were all they were doing, I wouldn't like it either, but if they reduce the magical items PC's are expected to be lugging around, then I'm ok with it. 4E may be more magical across the board, but if some of that power is internalized into the special abilities of character classes, rather than in glowing gew gaws that characters must wear and tote around to meet a certain power level, then I think it will actually have a less magical feel. It will be more covert and less in your face....I hope.

 

[teitan]

You know what, though, from the DM's side of the screen I have been doing this a lot lately. I love spell-stiched undead. I love cultists and shamans and other minor spellcasters. It gives me as DM a little surprising bag of tricks to pull from during an encounter.

What I probably should do is study the combat chapters of the game more and try to figure out what fun non-magical combat options I could pull out more often (tripping, grappling, overrunning, etc.).

As I learned in TOEE for the PC, tripping rules, even without the tabs and shrooms.

 

[BryonD]

As far as I gather, most people worried about the increased magic comment don't have a problem with the power level, but with the atmosphere.

An ability that adds +1d6 fire damage for one attack is no more powerful than an ability that adds +1d6 physical damage for on attack. In fact, it's less, since it's easier to protect yourself from fire.

But many people (myself included) feel that the latter is a much more appropriate power for a low level fighter, mostly as a matter of taste.

I haven't seen anything to make me think that this kind of overt magic from a fighter is what they have planned.

It is easy to think of story based reasons that this could be reasonable (the fighter in question has passed certain rituals in a secret fire cult, whatever) but to simply say fighter option 14: +1d6 fire to attacks sounds like a wild extrapolation from what has actually been stated.

 

[jasin]

I haven't seen anything to make me think that this kind of overt magic from a fighter is what they have planned.

True.

The only examples that I've seen so far are "rain of blows" giving you a "chance to make a couple of attacks" with a longsword; and "the speed and the option to go past AC" using a spear. I'm perfectly happy with those.

I'm just commenting in more general lines, along what they could be doing, or thinking about doing.

There's still ways to go before 4E is done, so I hope there's a chance our opinions might still influence the authors. No use complaining about the (hypothetical) flaming sword power once I have the book in hand.

 

[Nifft]

8/11 of the Core PHB classes have spells, spell-like or supernatural abilities.

Of the remaining (non-magical) 3, one has Use Magic Device as a class skill.

There's always been tons of magic in the Core classes.

Cheers, -- N

 

[pawsplay]

8/11 of the Core PHB classes have spells, spell-like or supernatural abilities.

Of the remaining (non-magical) 3, one has Use Magic Device as a class skill.

There's always been tons of magic in the Core classes.

Cheers, -- N

I'm just hoping they aren't shooting for 11/11. And Limit Breaks.

 

[FireLance]

New WotC article about the Martial Power Source.

This quote leads me to think that we will have fewer flashy, supernatural-seeming maneuvers in 4e, at least at the lower levels:

In terms of flavor and description, the martial character/athlete analogy guided many decisions about the way martial characters push themselves beyond the limit. At low levels, martial characters have abilities that are impressive but don’t stretch the boundaries of what is or is not possible. Only at the highest levels do we see martial characters verging into the truly impossible acts of agility and strength attainable only in fiction.