Increasing the incentive for using advanced combat

[Stalker0]

One thing I don’t like about dnd advanced combat (thing like bull rushing, flanking) is that I feel that the benefits are often not worth the risks. So I was thinking about improving those benefits a little, so what you think.

Bullrushing: How about requiring a balance check (DC 5-10, in that range) where you fall prone if you of course don’t fall prone already by hitting something.

"In my mind, this makes bullrushing a little bit stronger, but with strength check followed by the balance check, its not a substitue for trip."

Flanking: I feel that there isn’t enough power to surrounding a target. How about for two characters that get of flanking, the bonus is +2. However, for every additional pair of characters that gain flanking on a target, the bonus increases to by 1. Also, we add a new condition:

Surrounded: A character who has 3 or more pairs of enemies flanking him is considered surrounded. In addition to the normal flanking bonus, you lose your dex bonus against all targets surrounding you.

"This makes a character getting surrounding by orcs or goblins a big threat, even more at higher levels."

Overrun: How about if the target of the overrun chooses to avoid you they don’t get an AOO on you.

"I feel this will make overrun a better option, right now most of the time the target moves aside and gets a swing on you…. Not really that great an option."

So what do you all think?

 

[Liminal Syzygy]

The danger with making bullrushing stronger is that it is already very good in some corner cases... i.e. when you are bullrushing an enemy into a pit, a wall of fire, etc.

Flanking is always a nice bonus, but becomes extremely critical to party tactics if there is a rogue. If there were no sneak attacks I would say great, but the extra to hit on top of sneak attacks may make it too strong.

I don't see an issue with the overrun change.

 

[Staffan]

One problem with flanking is that one one hand, it's supposedly tied to the defender not being able to keep track of the attackers properly, but on the other hand it's an "attacker" condition (i.e. the attacker is flanking, but the defender isn't "flanked"). This leads to some weird cases, for example:

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 D
 A

The attackers get a flanking bonus.

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A A

For some reason, the attackers do NOT get a flanking bonus. This despite the fact that it ought to be harder to keep track of three equally-spaced attackers rather than two.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

Personally, I think the advanced rules are good enough as is. IMC, advanced combat rules weren't used very often until lately. Now, people are clueing in to taking the appropriate feats to maximize the potential of advanced tactics and the results are pretty devastating. Disarming the villain is a pain in the ass for the DM. Ditto with grappling.

It's all in the application; the rules are fine as is.

 

[AeroDm]

Well, the advanced options that you mentioned do seem to be the ones used the least often (with the exception of Flank).

For BullRush I put in a feat where if you defeated them by 5+ they were knocked prone and you received a free attack as per improved trip. No one has yet to take it, but I think it seems fair and attractive.

I would not suggest improving flank. Flank is a free +2 and, as has been stated, sneak attack makes or break it. I would suggest putting in a house rule that flankers need not be opposite but rather threaten from 50% or more of an area.

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A A

Basically if a character is threatened by people who span 1/2 around it or more they are threatened by all.

I cannot really comment on overrun as we have never used it.

 

[the Jester]

In my opinion, the way to improve the advanced combat options is to add more feats to buff up the options.

 

[maddman75]

The combat options are highly dependant on situation. My players really wrecked havoc on me using (3.0) Blade Barrier, with warriors readying to Bull Rush anyone trying to leave the area.

 

[rkanodia]

I'd suggest looking in Complete Warrior, mostly the Tactical and Style feats. Combat Brute has some juicy combos with bull rush/attack and charge/power attack. Giantbane is both cinematic and powerful. Shock Trooper lets you combine bull rush and trip. And almost all the Style feats are very strong, if you can meet the prereqs.

If you come up with any good feats, be sure to post em!