S
Sunseeker
Guest
Hardly. More like if Exxon spun off gas stations and decided to install an electric charger.
D&D 5E Indifying 5e
- Thread starter nightspaladin
- Start date
Hardly. More like if Exxon spun off gas stations and decided to install an electric charger.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
I don't think you understand the magnitude of the decisions which guide 13A, or how incredibly they vary from the guidelines behind any edition of D&D - even from 4E.
It's like they took one minor sidebar from one chapter of the DMG, and used that as the foundation for an entirely new edition. Personally, I would hesitate to even consider 13A as an actual RPG.
What have you got in mind? I think the only mechanical bit of 13th Age that is radical compared to 4e is its background rules.
Jonathan Tweet wrote Over the Edge, the original "indie" game!
13th Age has some clear indie elements: its background rules; "one unique thing" (which is a watered-down version of PC-building in OtE); and the icon rules which are meant to integrate player choices at PC building into scenario design and resolution.
Interesting. Can you say a bit more?
That's a bit odd!
Can I infer from this that you're not very familiar with games like Over the Edge, HeroWars/Quest, Burning Wheel, Dungeon World, Marvel Heroic RP, etc?
What high magnitude changes are you referring to?
This doesn't make any sense. 13th Age is simplified 3e + 4e written in a breezy, clever voice -- which *is* unusual for an RPG, but surely doesn't disqualify it!
Manbearcat
Legend
Absolutely. Further, the icon rules also integrate player choice into collective, in-situ world-building. Couple the above with (a) Fail Forward explicitly invoked as a resolution technique, (b) telegraphing intent and interpretation of action resolution fallout based on intent, (c) outright director stance player authority sprinkled throughout, (d) metagame transparency in chassis and outcome-based design, and (e) the Forge (Crane, Edwards, Baker) expressly thanked for its contribution to, and inspiration for, 13th Age's design. 13th Age is clearly a game steeped in indie design principles and it comes out in play.
Is it as focused and coherent (with respect to indie design principles) as a game like Dungeon World? No. But neither was 4e and both of those games are absolutely indie-inspired in much/most of the design ethos that underwrites both systems.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, 5e basically ported (a) the ability check system overall and (b) the application of background (skill) in noncombat action declaration directly from 13th Age. The inspiration currency system and the player authority in the Background system of 5e is definitely indie-inspired.
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Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
Previous campaign I ran was a 7 year 3.5 campaign, been running 13th Age since it came out. My experiences vary from yours, they play VERY differently at my table. Have you had the chance to play it in a campaign?
13th Age doesn't support the number crunching, must-plan-ahead feat chain/prestige class/multiclassing cherry picking PC creation that 3.5 had. Monsters and NPCs use a simple system to build, not the same interestingly complex rules as players that made every high level encounter was a chore to build. It's theater of the mind, not grid based tactical combat. The background system is wonderfully freeform compared to 3.5 skills. Character creation and leveling up are simple. Encounter design is quick and easy to improv while still having appropriate numbers. 3.5 had nothing like the Icon relationships or One Unique Thing. The escalation die makes the "first round Nova" of 3.5 not a no-brained tactical choice, and prevents fights from turning into grinds. PCs aren't magic item christmas trees to keep up with the math. DCs are straightforward. No spreadsheets to run complex PCs to track all the different types of bonuses. Combat even at higher levels runs quickly because there aren't loads of buffs and bonuses that constantly need to be calculated nor option paralysis of too many spells, each player can take their turn rapidly. Number of spells are kept manageable and include your choice of taking dailies, encounter, at-will, or a variety of together (recharge, etc.) Weapons do [level]dX dice so weapon users are on par with casters for damage, and it balances quadratic casters in other ways as well. It doesn't bother with low level spell slots at higher level, and EVERY spell gets a boost for being cast with a higher level slot. It did a lot of what 5e did before 5e way out. (And yes, these were in the playtests that were out before the D&D Next playtests.) it doesn't try to have rules (and conditional modifiers) for all situations and actively encourages the DM to not only make rulings, but to tinker with the rules for what works at their table. It has self-healing liek 4e and 5e and doesn't need a cleric or other healer. It encourages PC risk taking by allowing successful retreats with explicit narrative failure results instead of worrying about TPK. Sidebars include things like a variant not killing off PCs with unnamed foes, or the other side many monsters have "nastier specials" to customize with to throw the PCs more in harm's way.
I wouldn't classify it as an indie game, but it does have more indie elements then 5e or earlier editions. And it's plays very differently than 3.5 in my experience.
JeffB
Legend
In a nutshell, hot dice are too critical to opening up all the fun of combat.
Monsters become boring sacks of hitpoints without specials triggering.I was often ignoring the dice or 1/2 ing hitpoints just to get things over with. I am not a sticker for rules or against fudging, but I found it annoying when I am rolling 7s and 12s all day.
On the player side the same thing happens. Spells, cleric and fighter abilities that hold the promise of something very cool but often never come to fruition because the natural dice never get there. This happened to my players every single session every single battle and frustrated the crap out of them. The cleric buffs were really bad for this and the fighter player grew frustrated checking which moves he qualified for and then seeing it didn't do anything appropriate or MIGHT help him next round.
That was 3 sessions of a level 1 game, and 3 sessions of a level 5 game. After a couple months I tried to reintroduce it as a high level epic tier one shot session to revisit some OD&D Characters coming out of retirement for their last great adventure and got a chorus of boos. Partway into the session the Barbarian player gave up as his potential damage threshold kept building each round, but he missed in every single round and never got to blow his wad of damage.
Again, keep in mind, I have run very successful games with them with several systems over the years including things as varied as my own narrative focused heavily modded 4e game ( essentially my own 13th ageing of 4e , 2 years before 13A came out), RQ, COC, Dungeon World, DCC, and all kinds of OSR variants along with every single edition of dungeons and dragons. They generally hate long combats and rules. They love simplicity and would rather just describe something and ask me how to do it/roll. Combat is fun, but exploration and story is their focus.
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More RPGs need to be written in breezy, clever voices. I'm not sure Luke Crane's voice counts as breezy, but it's definitely clever, and is an important factor in the quality of the Burning Wheel rulebooks!
Tweet in Over the Edge also provides much better writing than the typical RPG rulebook.
The escalation die is a "tight" design of the indie sort, but I wouldn't say that it gives an indie feel per se. The retreat rules, on the other hand, are something that I forgot about upthread and should have put in my list of indie features - and they are also noticeably more radical than 4e.
I'm finding it difficult to know precisely what 'Indie' sensibilities the OP is seeking to introduce, or what is meant by 'more narrative style options'.
In a list of RPGs to explore I would put: Apocalypse World / Dungeonworld, Burning Wheel / Torchbearer
and FATE. I'd also suggest playing them as written before attempting to port systems from them into another game.
In a list of RPGs to explore I would put: Apocalypse World / Dungeonworld, Burning Wheel / Torchbearer
and FATE. I'd also suggest playing them as written before attempting to port systems from them into another game.
