Inequality of Skills

[Utrecht]

One of the things that has recently started to bother me is the rather dramatic differences in the usefullness of skills.

It almost seems to me that the designeds did not apply thier feat rule "if there is a feat that is so good everyone would take it, it needs to be toned down." to skills.

For example, such skills like Tumble, Seach, Spot and Listen as substantially more usefull than Intuit Direction or Balance. Sure there are times that these skills will be usefull mabye even critical - but the fact of the matter is that 1 skill point = 1 skill point regardless of the skill.

Now, what I would love to see is either a generization of those less usefull skills to put them on par with the other more desireable skills or to increase the costs of those more usefull skills (or reduce the cost of those less usefull - i.e. /5 skill point gets you 1 rank or intuit direction)

This would in my mind help round out characters by allowing them to be able to afford those skills that they might not wish to even bother with now.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I don't think they're nessarily more useful, they just get used more often.

A spot check might let you find a gold piece on the side of the road, but intuit direction might allow you to find your way out of the bad section of town you're lost in. Which would you say is more useful?

Honostly i think a lot of it depends on your DM keeping note of what the characters can do and challenging them appropriately.

 

[Crothian]

I've found that it is some skills are easier to use then others. DMs seem to only use the easy ones but never have situations that many skills can be or would be useful in.

 

[Utrecht]

While I certainly do not disagree that the DM has a certain amount of control over the usefullness of skills - I also feel that the skills themselves lead toward preferential pickings.

After all, what realistic motivation do I have to put more than 1 skill point into Intuite direction???? (and the only reason that I would do that is because it is trained skill) - if my character ever found himself in that situation, all they would do is take 20 - boom, I have found true north (whopee).

This as opposed to putting points into something like tumble that allows me to avoid attacks!!!!!!

Look at it this way, fundamentally, allocating skill points is fundamentally a form of gambling - do I spend it on something that will get used a lot over the course of my adventures or "waste" it on the blue moon situation. While I do not deny that in that blue moon situation, it could save the characters life - putting points into other skills (like spot) saved my character many many time before that - and the both cost the same!!!!!

Like I said, I truly beleive some sort of leveling of the skills are necessary - after all, given your average D&D campaign, what you rather have over the course of that campaign 20 ranks in use rope or 20 ranks in listen???? 20 ranks in Appraise or 20 ranks in Spellcraft???

 

[Crothian]

Look at it this way, fundamentally, allocating skill points is fundamentally a form of gambling - do I spend it on something that will get used a lot over the course of my adventures or "waste" it on the blue moon situation. While I do not deny that in that blue moon situation, it could save the characters life - putting points into other skills (like spot) saved my character many many time before that - and the both cost the same!!!!!

I don't see it that way. I take skills that makes sense to the character. Also, I try to make use of my skills. The player does have some control over using his skills. I also like to use the new uses for old skills found in many books to make the less useful skills useful again.

 

[Maniac]

I completely agree that there are some skills that are woefully underpowered and underused.

Intuit direction is probably the worst - I would simply add this ability to the Wilderness Lore (or Survival) skill.

Use rope is another one that seems just too specialized and mundane. I guess it can be used as an opposed skill for Escape Artist but unlike that skill it just seems a little unheroic for my character to worry about what knots he can tie.

A skill that get used more often is more useful. Even so, there are some skills I like because of the flavor they add. The aformentioned Escape Artist skill will probably not get as much use as spot and listen but it has a coolness to it that merits it being its own skill.

One huge pet peeve of mine is the Profession skill. It ends up being such a broadly defined skill that it often overlaps with the more defined skill that are individualy listed. For example, someone with Profession(Sailor) should know how to "use rope". Is that assumed or does the character also have to put points in that skill.

I don't have any kind of great solution - except to change the few skills that really bug me.

M.

 

[The It's Man]

(...)
After all, what realistic motivation do I have to put more than 1 skill point into Intuite direction???? (and the only reason that I would do that is because it is trained skill) - if my character ever found himself in that situation, all they would do is take 20 - boom, I have found true north (whopee).(...)

According to Sean Reynolds you can't take 20 with Intuit Direction.

Source : http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html

 

[Cassander]

Use Rope is weak? You're kidding, right? In 2e this was a very often taken proficiency, and it is very useful in 3e too. Many times my characters have been at teh top of a cliff with a rope. They tie the rope and start going down... if that use rope check aint good... well.. bad things happen.

I'm currently a player in a campaign where no one has use rope.. and we regret it! We had to ride an airbourne mount and tried to tie a rope around to help us (no saddle)... well... we've had some falls. We have subdued or forced surrender from many opponents (we're all Lawful Good and one of us is a cleric/monk of Ilmater who doesnt like killing)... and then we tie them up to interrogate them. We've had a few problems with prisoners escaping...

I agree that some skills are weaker than others, but Use Rope is not one of them. I highly recommend that every party should have one character with good Use Rope, or they'll regret it.

Intuit Direction... ugg.. hope it gets lumped in with Survival (Wilderness Lore) in 3.5e... I know this has been done in other d20 games, so I'd expect to see it here. Other skills are probably useful if ya manage to create uses for them. Only problem is for skills like Knowledge (weird crap) when you are at your dm's mercy for when they can be used, but I've persuaded my DM to let me have some stretched uses of Knowledge (georgraphy) to help get some kick from it. And one of my characters uses her maxed out diplomacy to turn enemies into allies... and that counts as avoiding more aoos than any tumble check could ever dream of.

I think Intuit Direction and maybe Balance are a tad weak, but over all I'd say that the skill system works pretty well... just go for those weird skills and you'll find uses.

(Only problem with lumping Balance into Tumble like certain d20 games is that Tumble is already so incredibly powerful... I think mayhap Tumble could use a power-down... DCs to avoid aoos should probably be higher.)

Moral of the story? Take Use Rope!

 

[Cedric]

I guess it can be used as an opposed skill for Escape Artist but unlike that skill it just seems a little unheroic for my character to worry about what knots he can tie.

Set down sometime, and try to tie some knots. Tie knots with loops, knots that slip, knots that tighten when you pull harder, knots that come loose easily if you pull the right way, but otherwise hold anything...try tieing as many knots as you can.

I think you might gain much more appreciation for the skill. As for usefulness of skills, I think a good bit of the burden falls on the GM to make those skills more useful.

I wouldn't call any of the skills useless and if you, as a GM, are seeing skills ignored or untaken, start introducing some scenarios where the players could benefit from having those ignored skills...or point out after the fact where they might have used one.

"Wow, with a little knowledge engineering, you could have brought down that whole bridge while the supply wagons were on it."

Cedric

 

[Ravellion]

Many times my characters have been at teh top of a cliff with a rope. They tie the rope and start going down... if that use rope check aint good... well.. bad things happen.

No it doesn't. That is a climb check. Use rope gives a +2 synergy bonus though.

I'm currently a player in a campaign where no one has use rope.. and we regret it! We had to ride an airbourne mount and tried to tie a rope around to help us (no saddle)... well... we've had some falls.

You can take twenty to make a proper knot. One that holds.

We have subdued or forced surrender from many opponents (we're all Lawful Good and one of us is a cleric/monk of Ilmater who doesnt like killing)... and then we tie them up to interrogate them. We've had a few problems with prisoners escaping...

Then you should buy Manacles and a good lock. These also have a lot less tendency to be cut by sharp things, or fray.

I agree that some skills are weaker than others, but Use Rope is not one of them. I highly recommend that every party should have one character with good Use Rope, or they'll regret it.

Not if they use take 20 for tying knots, use the proper climb rules, and buy manacles for prisoner purposes.

Rav