Inequality of Skills

[Frostmarrow]

An example of a near useless skill I've seen is Innuendo. I have never seen a PC take this skill.[/B]

Innuendo should be usable untrained. The point of the skill is to send an "unspoken" message to someone. I can do that. Kids can do that. Remember that you don't need Innuendo to pick up the message. If the sender succeeds with his check then you understand his true intentions. It's actually pretty useful for relaying combat tactics to your allies before the fight starts.

 

[Fenes 2]

Ok, does anyone really want to tell me that you need a special skill to tie a rope securely around a tree in order to climb down on it? I may not be the master sailor, but I learned some knots for my permit, and you don't need a special knot just to secure a rope around a tree - just tie enough knots, and it won't open anytime thios year.
You may need use rope for special knots, and to secure prisoners, and to tie knots that are easily to untie, but not to secure a rope on a tree to climb down with.

As far as skills are concerned, it depends on the campaign. Balance is not that often used in my campaign, but it comes up from time to time. I use gather information all the time when the PCs are, well, gathering information. Perform is also used often, as is tumble. Appraise is not used often, but then the PCs are not that cocnerned with wealth respectively are paying the price. I do, however, let fighters etc. judge a weapon on how it handles in order to determine masterwork quality.

I also have skills with one PC I have taken but not used often, such as some profession skills, just because they made sense for the PC.

 

[Shadowlord]

if my character ever found himself in that situation, all they would do is take 20 - boom, I have found true north (whopee).

Except that for Intuit Direction you may not take 20 and the DM must roll it. Check the skill more closely.

 

[KDLadage]

"Be carefull," said the wise and aged sage as he gently stroked his cheek. "for down that path lies GURPS and the dark side..."

In all honesty, I love skill-based systems. GURPS is a long-time favorite of mine for many styles of play. But you have not gotten into a real RPG argument until you find yourself hip-deep in a three-month long argument about the relative costs of skills and advantages and disadvantages within the GURPS system. If you are truly brave, simply make a statement about skill-maneuvers in the midstof this and watch as whole continents are torn in two.

If you think I am exagerating -- go over to Pyramid and look at the traffic on the proposed GURPS 4th Edition boards. Man, these people have disected skills more ways than you can imagine.

So... what is the answer?

Again, in all honesty, all skills -- no matter how you define them -- will run into similar arguments as people who play in vastly differing styles try to reconcile the relative merits of one skill over another. In other words -- the designers give you a nice limited number of skills. With these skills, you can simulate most anything you need. I have seen skills become critical that I would have thought throw-away all because the style of play was a bit different than my own.

So... leave them be. Keep it simple - 1 point = 1 rank in a class skill. 2 points = 1 rank in a cross-class skill. Done. I might be able to be convinced that the cross-class designation can go away and simplify this even further... but for now, it seems to not be so much of an issue.

 

[barsoomcore]

I just have to chime in on a couple of skills that people say they never use:

Gather Information and Innuendo.

Holy cow. These are two of the BIGGEST skills in my campaign. Gather Information -- if you can't find out what's going on you're hosed. My adventures absolutely hinge on Gather Information checks and when those fail -- fireworks start up in a big bad way. Nothing like watching your heroes breaking into the wrong house or storming the wrong underground lair!

And Innuendo often means the difference between a one-round combat that leaves the opposition dead and the party unhurt, or a full-on melee with unpredictable results and a great deal of injury if not death for the good guys.

If the leader makes an Innuendo check and warns the rest of the party that he's about to attack, they can get surprise against the bad guys and smack them hard before they even know what's happening.

Not to mention it's the only way for party members to remind each other about secret stuff while in the presence of those who ought not to know. Sometimes it's really really important to remember NOT to say anything about the magic pool in the old sewers when talking to the Lord Mayor.

Clearly I don't use Balance or Use Rope enough but that will start to change. Good ideas on those, folks.

 

[Broken Fang]

I always thought that Gather Information got in the way of role-playing out gathering information.

DM: Your in town at the inn...what are you going to do?

PC's: Roll Gather Information and move on to the next spot.

Not what it used to be.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree with most people here that the worth of a skill is truly dependent on the type of campaign your running, but even if we consider this there are still skills that shine over others.

I'll refer to spot and listen as they are common examples. I can not think of a campaign setting where these are not useful. A combat melee? Use them to find your enemy. Massive roleplaying? Use them to spot people following you, hear secrets you weren't meant to hear, etc. No matter the campaign, spot and listen are very important skills.

Other skills can also be very important given the right setting. For example, climb, jump, and swim. Some campaigns do make them very important. But in standard Dnd (which we have to assume), very basic magical equipment can easily replace these. And also, you have to consider the player's mindset, and even the adventurer's mindset.

He knows from experience that not being to tie a knot can bring certain doom. He also knows that not seeing his opponents can also bring certain doom. He has limited skill points. Well, he thinks, both are important, but my ability to spot has saved me many more times than my ability to use rope. So I'll increase spot.

Finally, there's a certain logic in increasing the cost of certain skills over others. If we want to get "real world" for a second, certain things take much longer to learn then others. If I apply myself, I can learn to tie ropes and such "relatively" easily and quickly. However, learning to attune my eyes and ears to see and hear better can take much longer.

Again, I agree with many that skills are in the eye of the beholder, but I still think when you look at all of the various campaign settings, some skills are superior to others.

 

[Utrecht]

According to Sean Reynolds you can't take 20 with Intuit Direction.

Source : http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/take20.html

Actually the way I read Seans comments (and I may be misreading them) is that you can not take 20 on subsequent checks, but that you can on the first one of the day.

 

[Utrecht]

Stalker0 - exactly what I was trying to suggest - not that any of the skills are bad - its that some are more equal than others.

I would like to see some type of game mechanics motivation to be the best Intuit Direction person in the world - as it stands now - there really is none - but being the best bluffer (since the now allow rogues to bluff for sneak attack damage) or spotter has definite advantages.

This problem is exacerbated by the fact that skill points are a limited resource - so I spend them on something that I use alot or something that I use less. Pragmatism suggest the more common usage. Further, if you look at the prestiege classes that exists, there are certainly some skills that come up MUCH more frequently than others.....suggesting that WotC (and others) favor certain skill over others.

While I agree that weighing skills has dangers into it, I see the skills fall into 3 classisifcations (given the average camaign)

1) The absolute must haves. This includes things like Tumble, Spellcraft, Spot, Listen.

2) The middle ground. Diplomacy, Knowledge, Search, etc.

3) The limited use: Intuit Direction, Read Lips, Forgery, Appraise

I would just like to see some sort of balancing amoungst these so that I do not feel like I am being punished for taking Appraise instead of Spot. I.e. have Appraise give me some sort of discount to purchases by being able to accurately tell its true value.......

 

[Christian]

Actually the way I read Seans comments (and I may be misreading them) is that you can not take 20 on subsequent checks, but that you can on the first one of the day.

Yes, you're misreading his comments. Once you make an Intuit Direction roll, the roll results are what you've got. Taking 20 roughly simulates 'rolling until you get a 20', which you can't do with Intuit Direction.

And just to answer the question before someone asks it, the reason it is mentioned that you can make new checks but use the original roll, is that situational modifiers can change during the day, and a roll that was initially a failure can become a success. Determining which way is west at sunset on the equinox is considerably easier after exiting the dungeon ...