Inequality of Skills

barsoomcore said:
I just have to chime in on a couple of skills that people say they never use:

Gather Information and Innuendo.

Holy cow. These are two of the BIGGEST skills in my campaign.

I love Innuendo. The big problem with it is that multiple characters need to take it for it to be truly valuable. I think it should be a class skill for all classes, just so it would be used more often.

It's like a secret language only your PCs know! I have a PBeM where all the PCs are rogues, and all have Innuendo. I get posts all the time like:

"I tip the bartender and with a phrase and a nod tell my partner 'this guys an ass, but those two in the corner look like easy marks.'"

It's just cool.

PS
 

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Broken Fang said:
I always thought that Gather Information got in the way of role-playing out gathering information.

DM: Your in town at the inn...what are you going to do?

PC's: Roll Gather Information and move on to the next spot.

Not what it used to be.
I don't find that to be the case. I like it for allowing me to pass on the encounters that don't actually lead anywhere and get to the meat of my story. I find there's just as much role-playing, but instead of role-playing out each and every conversation with each and every bartender or patron or stableboy, my heroes spend half a day getting their weapons sharpened, their gear replaced, and as they do so, using their Gather Information roll to determine how much they pick up from these people they're interacting with.

Without having to play out all the individual conversations, which don't involve the other players and aren't going to be interesting or have any tension in and of themselves.

It's like in an episode of Magnum, PI, where you get a little montage of Magnum talking to shop owners, garage attendants and beach bunnies as he tries to figure out where the missing heiress might have gone. We don't see the conversations because they're not important -- all that's important is the information one does or does not acquire.

The "role-playing" bits come when they're interacting with characters who want something from the PCs. Because THOSE interactions are actually interesting.
 

Storminator said:
It's like a secret language only your PCs know! I have a PBeM where all the PCs are rogues, and all have Innuendo.
Exactly! A couple of episodes back on Barsoom, our heroes ended up pretending to join a bunch of guards who were shipping orphans to some BBEG. For a while the PCs just went along with everything, since it was none of their problem and they just wanted a cover to get into the next town, but eventually Aubrey couldn't take it anymore and used Innuendo to let all the other players know he was about to make a move.

I had him make a Bluff check as he manuevered the guard captain into a vulnerable spot, and the party got a surprise round against the whole group of guards. Since just about everyone in this group gets sneak attack damage, the fight was over almost before it had begun, and the orphans were freed and everyone was happy.

If they hadn't used Innuendo that way, it would have been a normal Initiative and anything could have happened.

There are many cases in Barsoom of Innuendo providing the party with a great advantage over bad guys.
 

Intuit Direction

(RANT!)Intuit Direction needs to be removed as a skill, altogether, and put back as a General Feat, where it belongs! This comes from the 2e Sense Direction Non-Weapon Proficiency, available to all. It has little real use in a game ("What, ANOTHER Teleport trap!?!"), can be used only once/day, and is only available as a Class Skill to Rangers and Rogues... Druids have a Zero-level Orison (unavailable to Rangers) which lets them determine direction, and a Ranger only needs this skill IF he fails his Wilderness Lore check to avoid getting lost, in the first place! If he DOES use the skill, he can determine direction only to N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, NW, or a one-in-eight chance, if he GUESSED (12.5%). This is slightly worse than DC 17, unmodified, IF he could do it untrained. Since he cant, he would have a minimum of one Rank, and a probable +2 bonus, making it DC 14. The DC to Intuit Direction is DC 15, or about the same (a little worse) than mere guessing! Even if the first level Ranger maxes out this skill, with four Ranks and a typical +2 bonus, they will still have to roll a nine or better to succeed, making them about as likely to fail! For a skill that eats up skill points like any other, the rewards for this one are too small in proportion to the cost, and has too few applications to gaming. Make it a General Feat with a 100% chance of success. It's just a better way to handle it!(/RANT!)

My solution?

Infallible Direction Sense (General)
You can infallibly determine directions.
Prerequisite: Wisdom 13+.
Benefit: You have no problem telling which way is north (or east, etc.). This innate extraordinary ability functions constantly, at will, and any number of times/day. It is accurate to within a fraction of a degree over a day's time. This ability doesn't prevent you from getting lost, but does allow you to tell which way you're headed. It may or may not function on other worlds, planes, etc.
 

My only real problem with skills is ones with DC's that are set values or way too low.

1. Tumble - Once a Rogue can nail a DC 15 does he ever need to put more points in?

2. Spellcraft - When is the last time a mage didnt make the check to know what spell the enemy was casting?

BTW - Quick question. A Spellcraft check for spell decipher increases by 5 if one of the spells base items is missing. IE if cast will silent spell there is no verbal component so the DC goes up by 5. What is the caster and spellcrafter do not share a common language? Would you increase the DC by 5?

3. Casting Defensively - Way too easy.

On the other hand skill like Disable Device rarely if ever have a DC below 20-25.
 

One of the problems comes from some skills just getting subsumed by other skills.

Search, Wilderness Lore, and Intuit Direction. A good argument can be made (generally) for using any of those for finding one's way if lost.

Balance... Balance is hard to use without it most likly also being possible to perform as a Tumble or Rope Use/Climb (although it's more likly).

Also a problem are skills that get absolutely trumped by spells (Innuendo gets trumped by Mindlink/Rary's whatever mindlink spell is).
 

One possible ruling about Balance and Tumble is to keep Balance the same, remove Tumble, and then change the Mobility feat to allow you to use Balance to avoid AoO and do other Tumbling stuff. Mobility is pretty worthless as is.
 


Other skills

I really see no other skills which are too weak... Forgery seems way too strong, to me (it is opposed by itself)! Disguise, Read Lips and Languages are less used because they are cross-class for almost everyone. Open them to Rangers and Bards (the ones they don't already have), and they'll get more use. I would open Innuendo to Fighters, maybe Spot and Listen, as well. Read Lips, of course, should be opened cross-class to everyone... Pity the poor Druid who goes deaf and can't learn to Read Lips! (I know a lot of hearing-impaired Lip-readers, and none of them are Rogues!)

Rope Use seems useful, to me, and my PCs take it, although I have to admit that they rarely take much, as most GMs don't seem to know much about knotlore or how to use it in game... Also, the DCs on most skills is 15 for a standard use, and that's a bit too high.

Yes, anyone can tie a rope to a tree. Roughly half of them, however, will tie a granny knot, instead of a square knot or a pair of half-hitches. When they begin climbing down, there are two things that can happen: Either the granny knot slips and binds (becoming hard to untie), or it slips and come loose... ("Aaaaaaagh!") With a good square knot, neither will happen.

There is also the braiding two shorter ropes together to become one longer one... It rarely comes up, but is indespensible, when it does.

Finally, look at a Boy Scout's Handbook, SAS Survival Guide, or US Army Survival Manual, sometime. There are ALWAYS large sections on tying knots. Read a little further, and you'll find how to use some timber-hitches to make a couple of long poles and some short cross braces into a ladder, or a travois, or even bend'em and form a sled. There are all sorts of survival shelters (leantos, teepees, etc.), as well.

Now I can certainly see adding Intuit Direction and Rope Use into Wilderness Lore and renaming it Survival, but then what of the Rogue? Rogues Use Ropes, too, but more for climbing... Five Ranks of Rope Use gives a +2 Synergy Bonus to Climb checks when using one. (In the 2e days, having Rope Use also gave a +2 bonus with the Lasso, a weapon missing from 3e!)

Rope Use, more than any other skill, is very dependent upon the GM running the game. Get an old Boy Scout, or an Army Ranger to run the game, and it will become very important! :p

Innuendo is also not a useless (or even less useful) skill... Once upon a time, in a 2300AD Sci-Fi game, I asked a character with Psychology to tell me when a certain NPC was lying... She detected a lie, and blurted out: "He's lying." The NPC was very upset with us! ;) Innuendo could have helped, there!

Likewise, I have seen Spec. Ops types use hand signals when sneaking up on opponents in the field. It prevents being overheard, allows giving directions and timing attacks from multiple directions, and otherwise coordinating men in the field. Rogues, of course, use it for "spamming flash", talking about their heists in public without giving themselves away even if overheard, silently passing signals, and recognizing each other in public, or getting into the Thieve's Guild HQ (just "fer instance").

Again, Disguise isn't that often used because Rogues (IIRC) are the only ones who can take it as a class skill (if Bards can't, they should be able to). There are plenty of times when the PCs will try to jump some guards and sneak into a fortress...

Some of the problem with skills, I think, stems from the magic system, too... Spells like Jump, which (IIRC) gives +30, should not even exist. It cheapens the Rogue's abilities too much, and even the Monk's Leap of the Clouds pales beside this First Level(?) spell. There are other similar instances, as well. (I have no real problems with magic granting ability, just granting so much, so soon, that it takes a 27th level PC with the skill maxed out, and they STILL can't compete (their jumping distance is still limited by their height)! Ah well... I don't know what can be done about that...

In any case, while the skill system could certainly be improved, there are no really useless skills. I think perhaps the best things that could be done would be to open up the Exclusive skills to at least two classes, each, and increase skill points all around. That way, with the max. ranks still the same, more skills and cross-class skills would be taken.

As for the Athletics skill, I have done something similar in another game, but it causes some problems... Balancing, Climbing, Jumping, Riding, Swimming, and Tumbling all fall into that category... Would Fighters get it? If so, that gives them access to Balance and Tumble, two skills they don't have, now. In 2300, I left Ride and Swim out, but that still leaves the question of what to do about Fighters and Jump... So, I don't think that'll get done.

Balance and Jump get used a lot, depending upon the campaign, terrain, and what the (N)PCs try to do... A chase across the rooftops will use both, as will a fight in the trees, or along the top of a bluff. Probably only a Rogue will ever take enough ranks to be able to walk a tight rope, though... :eek:
 

DCs

DocMoriartty said:
My only real problem with skills is ones with DC's that are set values or way too low.

1. Tumble - Once a Rogue can nail a DC 15 does he ever need to put more points in?

Agreed. Tumble should be opposed by something that scales, such as the attack roll, or perhaps only give a bonus to AC against attacks (of Opportunity, or otherwise), instead. Intimidate has similar problems (a 20th level Wizard should be more intimidating than a 7th level Barbarian/Fighter).

2. Spellcraft - When is the last time a mage didnt make the check to know what spell the enemy was casting?

BTW - Quick question. A Spellcraft check for spell decipher increases by 5 if one of the spells base items is missing. IE if cast will silent spell there is no verbal component so the DC goes up by 5. What is the caster and spellcrafter do not share a common language? Would you increase the DC by 5?

Also remember the non-spellslinger trying to use this, cross-class... Don't make the DCs so high that non-Wiz can't use it!

As I understand it, magic is its own language (which is why scroll and spellbook use is not also language-dependent). So no, I wouldn't. YMMV.

(EDIT: Typos!)
 
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