Infuse for feats

[astriemer]

A while ago RW answered a question about giving feats or other class abilities using spells with the following two answers:

Maybe an Infuse spell would work to grant the knowledge of strange abilities. Infuse Time for initiative, Infuse Air to dodge with evasion, Infuse Death maybe for weapon proficiency. Be careful not to undercost unique class abilities.

Regarding granting feats through magic, I couldn't quite think of where they needed to go, spell list-wise.

I do know, though, that the ability would be written so that X MP grants a +Y bonus to the number of feats you know. Multiple spells don't grant stacking bonus feats. That way you can't cast several spells to get several bonus feats. If you want to have 3 bonus feats, you have to pay (pulling a number out of thin air) 3 MP.

You need to have all the prerequisites feats in a feat chain, but you can ignore ability score and attack bonus prerequisites. You can't grant magical feats this way. If you wanted to grant yourself Whirlwind Attack, you'd need to grant Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, and Whirlwind Attack as a package; if you wanted to give Whirlwind Attack to someone who already had Spring Attack, you'd just have to grant Combat Expertise and Whirlwind Attack.

Hmm. Any suggestions for pricing that, and where to put it in the spell lists?

How about this for which spell lists to use?

Spell List: feats or class abilities associated with spell list
Life: feats dealing with endurance or health (Endurance, Run, Diehard, etc.)
Time: feats dealing with time, initiative, or speed (Improved Initiative, etc.)
Good: exalted feats
Evil: vile feats
Earth: feats relating to melee combat
Air: feats relating to ranged or multi-weapon combat
Death: general combat feats and weapon proficiencies
Mist: feats relating to unarmed combat
Sound: feats relating to defensive combat (including armor profs)
Void: feats relating to mounted combat
Acid: tactical feats
Crystal: feats relating to barbarian abililities (rage and damage reduction)
Fire: feats relating to bardic abilities (music)
Water: feats relating to clerical abilities (domains or undead turning)
Ice: feats relating to druidic abilities (companions, wild shape, empathy)
Mist: feats relating to monk abilities (ki, flurry)
Ooze: feats relating to paladin abilities (speical mount, divine grace, lay-hands, smite)
Sound: feats relating to ranger abilities (favored enemy)
Space: feats relating to rogue abilities (sneak, evasion)
Water: feats relating to the senses (scent)

Any other abilities then could be placed using these as guidelines.

FYI-I took a quick look through some of the books I had handy to see what kinds of feats and abilities are granted and saw that the following were granted at one point or another (whirlwind, ranged whirlwind, far shot, weapon and armor proficiencies, weapon finese, evasion, sneak attack, scent, improved crit, rage, choice from all fighter feats). A couple of these are already pretty closely similated (improved crit with infuse space, rage with charm, sneak attack with elemental weapon) but others are not.

Most of these are "physical" feats, should there be some explicit limitation with infuse to prevent certain feats (such as preventing metamagic, item creation, tradition, regional)? I don't remember for sure, but I think I remember seeing a spell that applied a metamagic effect to the next spell cast, so maybe there shouldn't be a limitation. As I recall though there was a pretty hefty material component cost so perhaps that isn't a good example. Probably best just to use a varient of LA greater power components to achieve that effect.

Off the top of RW's head, he proposed 1 MP gives 1 feat (with feat chains requiring full payment up front). Has any tried to see if that is balanced yet?

What type of cost would the class abilities be (given RW's warning not to undercost them)? I'm thinking maybe 1 MP per level it would take to get the ability within the normal class progression or the step increase for abilities that are usable x/day normally (thus evasion 2 MP, improved evasion 9 MP, smite 5 MP for example).

 

[RangerWickett]

This is more complicated of an issue than I'd like to devote effort to, but if someone did come up with a nice, fleshed-out set of costs for getting feats through Infuse, I'd be willing to put it up as an official EOM web enhancement if it's short, or sell it as a mini-pdf if it's longer than 10 pages.

 

[Verequus]

How about this for which spell lists to use?

Spell List: feats or class abilities associated with spell list
Life: feats dealing with endurance or health (Endurance, Run, Diehard, etc.)
Time: feats dealing with time, initiative, or speed (Improved Initiative, etc.)
Good: exalted feats
Evil: vile feats

While I understand, that exalted and vile would use those lists, they are still not OGC, so you can't put them there officially.

Earth: feats relating to melee combat
Air: feats relating to ranged or multi-weapon combat
Death: general combat feats and weapon proficiencies
Mist: feats relating to unarmed combat
Sound: feats relating to defensive combat (including armor profs)
Void: feats relating to mounted combat

I'm not sure, but are overlappings possible? For example, what are general combat feats exactly? Can I declare melee combat feats to general combat feats - or where is the dividing line?

Acid: tactical feats
Crystal: feats relating to barbarian abililities (rage and damage reduction)
Fire: feats relating to bardic abilities (music)
Water: feats relating to clerical abilities (domains or undead turning)
Ice: feats relating to druidic abilities (companions, wild shape, empathy)
Mist: feats relating to monk abilities (ki, flurry)
Ooze: feats relating to paladin abilities (speical mount, divine grace, lay-hands, smite)
Sound: feats relating to ranger abilities (favored enemy)
Space: feats relating to rogue abilities (sneak, evasion)
Water: feats relating to the senses (scent)

The clerical abilities are problematic - in EoMR they don't exist respectively are subsumed with the Charm/Compel Undead lists.

Any other abilities then could be placed using these as guidelines.

FYI-I took a quick look through some of the books I had handy to see what kinds of feats and abilities are granted and saw that the following were granted at one point or another (whirlwind, ranged whirlwind, far shot, weapon and armor proficiencies, weapon finese, evasion, sneak attack, scent, improved crit, rage, choice from all fighter feats). A couple of these are already pretty closely similated (improved crit with infuse space, rage with charm, sneak attack with elemental weapon) but others are not.

Not every weapon enhancement can be simulated, too.

Most of these are "physical" feats, should there be some explicit limitation with infuse to prevent certain feats (such as preventing metamagic, item creation, tradition, regional)? I don't remember for sure, but I think I remember seeing a spell that applied a metamagic effect to the next spell cast, so maybe there shouldn't be a limitation. As I recall though there was a pretty hefty material component cost so perhaps that isn't a good example. Probably best just to use a varient of LA greater power components to achieve that effect.

I'd like to retain the availability of every feat - not only because of aestethic reasons. The origin shouldn't matter, if you can use a feat - the costs will be a deterrant alone for abusing this option. If you want to have a feat, then you need to cast a spell, which costs MP. Then you can use the feat for a limited duration only. If the feat should enhance a chosen signature spell, then you can use this signature spell only, as long the feat spell is active. If you don't want to pay always MP, then you can make a magic item for this, but this costs money and a magic item slot. One can always have several magic items, but this can be a burden, too, not to forget the costs for making/attaining the magic item.

Off the top of RW's head, he proposed 1 MP gives 1 feat (with feat chains requiring full payment up front). Has any tried to see if that is balanced yet?

No, I haven't.

What type of cost would the class abilities be (given RW's warning not to undercost them)? I'm thinking maybe 1 MP per level it would take to get the ability within the normal class progression or the step increase for abilities that are usable x/day normally (thus evasion 2 MP, improved evasion 9 MP, smite 5 MP for example).

Normal class progression... No, not a good idea. The abilities are available at different levels for every class - are you using then the lowest level available? What if someone invents a new class, which grants the ability at a lower level? Will you change the costs? Furthermore, the ability should be costed after usefulness - improved evasion in the whole costs more than normal evasion, because it is better. Actually, improved evasion should have evasion as prerequisite - you need to pay for evasion extra, if you don't have it already. I think, 2 MP for improved evasion (without evasion) could be the right ball park-figure. Regarding the costs of such spells I've commented already above.

Oh, could you please explain, how much you need to pay for smiting 2/day?

 

[astriemer]

While I understand, that exalted and vile would use those lists, they are still not OGC, so you can't put them there officially.

Okay, lets say that Infuse Good lets you acquire feats that require the sanctioning of good higher powers and similarly for Infuse Evil

I'm not sure, but are overlappings possible? For example, what are general combat feats exactly? Can I declare melee combat feats to general combat feats - or where is the dividing line?

I would think that for some feats it would be pretty grey and thus there could be overlapping, weapon focus for example could use Infuse Earth for use with a sword, but Infuse Air for a bow. But that if a feat states in its description that it applies to melee weapons, such as power attack, then it would only be available with Infuse Earth.

The clerical abilities are problematic - in EoMR they don't exist respectively are subsumed with the Charm/Compel Undead lists.

Yes, I just put it there as I was trying to assign each of the core classes to an Infuse list.

Not every weapon enhancement can be simulated, too.

True, but RW indicated that you should be able to extrapolate any missing ones (I had asked about fortification) and cost it at 1 MP per +1 enhancement cost. BTW-what are all the weapon and armor enhancements that can't be simulated?

I'd like to retain the availability of every feat - not only because of aestethic reasons. The origin shouldn't matter, if you can use a feat - the costs will be a deterrant alone for abusing this option. If you want to have a feat, then you need to cast a spell, which costs MP. Then you can use the feat for a limited duration only. If the feat should enhance a chosen signature spell, then you can use this signature spell only, as long the feat spell is active. If you don't want to pay always MP, then you can make a magic item for this, but this costs money and a magic item slot. One can always have several magic items, but this can be a burden, too, not to forget the costs for making/attaining the magic item.

That was my thought as well.

No, I haven't.

I'll have to get our current DM to let me try with the character I'm running.

Normal class progression... No, not a good idea. The abilities are available at different levels for every class - are you using then the lowest level available? What if someone invents a new class, which grants the ability at a lower level? Will you change the costs? Furthermore, the ability should be costed after usefulness - improved evasion in the whole costs more than normal evasion, because it is better. Actually, improved evasion should have evasion as prerequisite - you need to pay for evasion extra, if you don't have it already. I think, 2 MP for improved evasion (without evasion) could be the right ball park-figure. Regarding the costs of such spells I've commented already above.

Oh, could you please explain, how much you need to pay for smiting 2/day?

Good point about availability at different levels. I was assuming core classes as a base. I would probably say that unless a new ability is introduced in a new class, the the core class levels are the standard, regardless if an existing ability shows up at a lower or higher level. Using that as a baseline, evasion would always cost 2 MP and improved evasion would always cost 7 MP plus evasion (either naturally or for another 2 MP).

Smiting would cost 5 MP to be able to smite as many times as you can attack during the spell duration.

 

[Verequus]

Yes, I just put it there as I was trying to assign each of the core classes to an Infuse list.

If you don't use core classes, then this list is worthless.

Good point about availability at different levels. I was assuming core classes as a base. I would probably say that unless a new ability is introduced in a new class, the the core class levels are the standard, regardless if an existing ability shows up at a lower or higher level. Using that as a baseline, evasion would always cost 2 MP and improved evasion would always cost 7 MP plus evasion (either naturally or for another 2 MP).

Smiting would cost 5 MP to be able to smite as many times as you can attack during the spell duration.

It seems, that I haven't got my point across entirely. I mean, just because the Special Abilities of the Rogue (one of which is Improved Evasion) are available at 10th level, they aren't 10 MP worth. Compare it to feats - after the UK-CR, feats are nominally 0.2 CR worth (like a normal class ability), regardless of the actual prerequisites and at which level you take them. The order of the class abilities in the core classes is only a design choice - the designers simply decided, in which order the abilities would be interesting to take in actual game play, so that you take level and level in one of those classes. You can swap the class abilities in the positions and it wouldn't be unbalancing. Thus it is not logical to pay for one class ability more because of the only reason, that the needed level is higher.

 

[Thomas5251212]

If you don't use core classes, then this list is worthless.



It seems, that I haven't got my point across entirely. I mean, just because the Special Abilities of the Rogue (one of which is Improved Evasion) are available at 10th level, they aren't 10 MP worth. Compare it to feats - after the UK-CR, feats are nominally 0.2 CR worth (like a normal class ability), regardless of the actual prerequisites and at which level you take them. The order of the class abilities in the core classes is only a design choice - the designers simply decided, in which order the abilities would be interesting to take in actual game play, so that you take level and level in one of those classes. You can swap the class abilities in the positions and it wouldn't be unbalancing. Thus it is not logical to pay for one class ability more because of the only reason, that the needed level is higher.

I think I have to disagree with the premise here; some feats and class abilities are worth more than others, and I think they're usually handled by making them take longer to access or limiting them to specific classes for that reason. For example, in any game with any significant presence of area attacks, Evasion is dispreportionately attractive. Rogue's get it quite early, but then, they pay for it by not exactly being drop dead combatants in other ways until much higher levels. Similarly Uncanny Dodge is dispreportionately useful to anyone who is even vaguely dependent on their Dodge bonus (and even many that aren't, in a setting where suprise strike exists).

Similarly, there are simply feats that are worth more than others; ideally, this is partly balanced by prerequisites (at least those that require other feats); treating them all as equal essentially is turning a blind eye to their lack of equality.