D&D General Inherently Evil?

[Vaalingrade]

Yes it does. 3.5 DMG page 147, "Inner Planes: These six planes are manifestations of the basic building blocks of the universe."

From the 1e Manual of the Planes, "The outer planes are also called the Planes of Power since they are the homes of the most powerful extraplanar beings in the known planes of existence. They have a mixture of elements that supports a rich diversity of life."

From the 2e DMG, "Using the sphere analogy, outside of the Primes and the Ethereal planes are the inner planes, the primary building forces of the multiverse."

From 2e Planescape, "Eighteen, not four, is the correct number of Inner Planes to be found. These are the building blocks of all matter."

From the 3.5 Manual of the Planes, "Inner Planes: Also called planes of power, these realities are incarnations of the basic building blocks of the universe." and "Within the D&D cosmology, the Inner Planes consist of four Elemental Planes (Earth, Air, Fire, and Water) and two Energy Planes (Positive, the moving spirit of all life, and Negative, the force of decay and entropy)."

None of that says they're the building blocks of evil.

Unless life is inherently good and death inherently evil despite you just saying Paladins get to clap fools in self defense.

I don't understand how you can think that it isn't evil to use spells that are literally evil.

Because they're not. That's the point.

Not really. Food is good for you, unless you eat too much and become overweight or your stomach bursts. Water is good for you, unless you drink too much and die from it. "Too much of a good thing" does not in any way take away from the goodness of whatever it is, if taken in moderation.

That's not the definition of good we're talking about here. It's hard to be the elemental form of 'respect all life' if you're exploding people for being in your vicinity.

Gotcha. Yeah, the reasoning behind the Cataclysm always bothered me.

This is how describing all D&D alignment as a morality system feels to me. Like there is so little good in Good and so many things that are arbitrarily evil and it demands to be treated as objective, which means someone at the table ends up sitting in judgement of the others unless you just don't engage it at all.

 

[Voadam]

Vaalingarde, what is your argument for how the [Evil] descriptor animate dead spell interacts with alignment? Particularly in 3.0 when it created Always neutral skeletons and zombies? It is not like protection from good in interacting directly with an alignment feature.

"Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on."

It seems internally consistent to me that it impacts the caster's alignment. In any case it is a minor point, aligned acts are rarely brought up directly as a game mechanic at all, it is only the paladin class generally where it becomes a front of mind issue.

 

[Faolyn]

We're talking about 3e. I'm not surprised about 5e, though. There are lots of small changes that they made with this latest edition.

Ah, I missed that--or rather, I missed it was just 3e. Sorry. I didn't play enough 3x to weigh in--other than to say that I'm pretty sure I recall there there were spells (probably from a 3x Ravenloft book) that let you specifically puppeteer corpses. Can't remember the spells' levels, though. Which suggests that at there were at least some folks who also wouldn't let them get animated by animate object.

 

[Maxperson]

None of that says they're the building blocks of evil.

Unless life is inherently good and death inherently evil despite you just saying Paladins get to clap fools in self defense.

Negative energy is entropy and decay, evil concepts. Not merely death. I mean, Kali, Talos(pre 5e). Tharizdun and others are all upstanding citizens. No evil there.

Because they're not. That's the point.

Except they are by RAW evil spells. That's why they have the EVIL descriptor. A fireball has the fire descriptor because it's fire. An Ice Storm has the descriptor..............................COLD. Lightning Bolt went out on a limb and gave itself the electricity descripter. The descriptors are what the spells are. All evil descriptor spells are evil, and using them is therefore an evil act.

It's hard to be the elemental form of 'respect all life' if you're exploding people for being in your vicinity.

It doesn't. It charges them and if they stay too long they explode. It's not the fault of the plane if someone stays longer than they should. If they leave in the appropriate amount of time, they have bonuses from the goodness of the plane.

This is how describing all D&D alignment as a morality system feels to me. Like there is so little good in Good and so many things that are arbitrarily evil and it demands to be treated as objective, which means someone at the table ends up sitting in judgement of the others unless you just don't engage it at all.

I've rarely felt that about things. The vast majority of the time, evil acts in D&D really would be evil in real life, and good acts in D&D. would be good in real life.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Vaalingarde, what is your argument for how the [Evil] descriptor animate dead spell interacts with alignment? Particularly in 3.0 when it created Always neutral skeletons and zombies? It is not like protection from good in interacting directly with an alignment feature.

"Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on."

It seems internally consistent to me that it impacts the caster's alignment. In any case it is a minor point, aligned acts are rarely brought up directly as a game mechanic at all, it is only the paladin class generally where it becomes a front of mind issue.

Various items and effects in 3e granted +1 caster level for effects with certain tags. This let Evil domain clerics raise more undead. Remember that Dread Necromancer came around deep into 3.5 so Clerics were the best necromancers for a very long time.

Nothing in the explanation of descriptors says they all do all the things listed.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Negative energy is entropy and decay, evil concepts. Not merely death. I mean, Kali, Talos(pre 5e). Tharizdun and others are all upstanding citizens. No evil there.

Entropy and decay as not only natural but necessary forces.

Which incidentally undeath denies.

Except they are by RAW evil spells. That's why they have the EVIL descriptor.

It's just a tag. There were a lot of tags in 3e, some of which didn't even do anything for a long time because they were dummied out in the playtest.

It doesn't. It charges them and if they stay too long they explode. It's not the fault of the plane if someone stays longer than they should. If they leave in the appropriate amount of time, they have bonuses from the goodness of the plane.

Something that's actually Good would NOT be like 'If I murder you messily, it's your own fault'.

I've rarely felt that about things. The vast majority of the time, evil acts in D&D really would be evil in real life, and good acts in D&D. would be good in real life.

I am someone who does not think Frank Castle is a hero, much less a good person. Good's psychotic mad on for murdering the opposing team and absolute disregard for the dignity of others they deem a fair target is something I cannot accept. And I also don't accept the scattered, exception based view of evil. Lying is apparently evil, but mind control isn't. One of the only two brainwashing spells in the game is Gooder Than Good. We're seriously expected to talk morality when it's unquestioned if you kill people via immolation or acid immersion. The freaking angels stand by and egg on the Blood War which is fueled by the corruption and ruination of countless mortals because they want to gank the winner while they're weakened. Holy Word is designed explicitly for collateral damage because those filthy neutrals deserve it for not being good.

Good in D&D... isn't. It's just as alien and monstrous as its evil

 

[Maxperson]

It's just a tag. There were a lot of tags in 3e, some of which didn't even do anything for a long time because they were dummied out in the playtest.

Not by RAW. The long and the short of it is that the alignment descriptors are those alignments when cast, just like fire spells are fire when cast, lightning is lighting when cast, light is light when cast and so on. You have to prove RAW wrong, and you're not doing that with just an arbitrary claim of being correct.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Not by RAW. The long and the short of it is that the alignment descriptors are those alignments when cast, just like fire spells are fire when cast, lightning is lighting when cast, light is light when cast and so on. You have to prove RAW wrong, and you're not doing that with just an arbitrary claim of being correct.

I don't have to prove RAW wrong because that's your interpretation, not an official ruling.

 

[Maxperson]

I don't have to prove RAW wrong because that's your interpretation, not an official ruling.

So you contend that the fire descriptor isn't because Fireball is fire?

 

[Hex08]