D&D 5E Initial D&D Next Releases Showing Up on Barnes & Noble Website

I am really struggling to understand your perspective on this. It's nothing at all like spoiling the Academy Awards - which ARE A COMPETITION. You know, with the competitors all right there, in the room, waiting to hear if they won! If massive impact on their careers, on money, on what else will be made in the future, etc..

Why do you care who announces the date and initial price of the PHB? What could they have "planned" that would make this minor announcement somehow more "major" of an announcement? What on earth were you expecting that would be massively different from what you got?

There simply was nothing at stake here in who makes the announcement and how they made it. It was purely an information dump.

There was no competition here. There is nothing "spoiled" here. There was not "better" message being planned that would somehow make announcing a price and date for a book more "meaningful" than simply announcing the price and date of the book. It's just a friggen price and slightly more specific date of a book for goodness sake!

I am just not understanding why you think this was so major, and how you can go on for days on how important it is that WOTC didn't make this announcement but B&N did. Why do you care, and why is this like spoiling the Oscars for you when most of the rest of us are just talking about the information itself?
If it didn't matter WotC wouldn't be saying "no comment".
The thing is, WotC very much wants information released on their schedule. They very much want to be in control of what we know about their products and when. It's been that way since 4e when they slowly released information at certain times, like dragonborn being core, the changed planes, and the like. By continually teasing information there was always some new topic to talk about which kept the fanbase going for the six months of sparse content prior to release. And if they're in control of our infodumps, we keep going to their website for information and updates, and are exposed to their hype, their marketing. We visit to learn about the release and see teasers of content like, oh, the warlock and sorcerer.

However, they suck at telling us things. And we've seen so much of 5e and have been in a holding patter for so long there much less they can tease us with.
Because WotC is so terrible at this, we get our information elsewhere and the official site has slowly become old news. We all learned about the warlock about it after the Twitch game, before Mearls wrote his article. And everything he "revealed" about the sorcerer was kinda already known after the 24-hour Charity game a few months back. When I want to hear about D&D news I go to ENWorld first, then ICv2, and a couple blogs. And most of the time I hear about news from Twitter first. There's no real reason to visit the D&D site and thus I am unexposed to their hype.

And they've kept us waiting for so long. We've heard "we can't talk about products" for two years. And we really want them to talk about products. And now someone else has come along and beaten them to talking about their own products. So now anything they say on the subject just won't feel as impressive or "must read".
 

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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
If it didn't matter WotC wouldn't be saying "no comment".

LOL let me see if I get this straight - if something doesn't matter, then if they say "I don't have a comment" that means it matters?

Seriously, you've gone beyond stretching it. You've now literally said it matters no matter what they do or do not say, as opposed to figuratively. You actually said "no comment" means something.

The thing is, WotC very much wants information released on their schedule.

Why? How do you know this isn't their schedule, and why do you think it matters to them at all, much less "very much"? Where are you getting this from. I want your source cited for where you're getting this, because it really looks like you, and you alone, going off on this part of the topic. Everyone else is just talking about the price and date. If it was so important, SOMEONE would have made the argument as to WHY it is important and how this has done something damaging in some way to someone's bottom line.

They very much want to be in control of what we know about their products and when.

Show me where they say they care about how you find out the price and release month? You're just making bald assertions and then claiming it's fact.

It's been that way since 4e when they slowly released information at certain times, like dragonborn being core, the changed planes, and the like.

This has nothing to do with a price and more specific release date range for 5e. NOTHING. There's no association at all between the two.

By continually teasing information there was always some new topic to talk about which kept the fanbase going for the six months of sparse content prior to release.

Right...and finding out from B&N instead of from WOTC changes this how exactly? Or that this was an "important" information release why?

And if they're in control of our infodumps, we keep going to their website for information and updates, and are exposed to their hype, their marketing.

Except they did the last two in press releases not even on their main site. Meanwhile a bunch comes through Twitter responses. And then some more from YouTube. And then sometimes from interviews. There is no pattern or practice of what you claim to be happening, actually being the case.

We visit to learn about the release and see teasers of content like, oh, the warlock and sorcerer.

However, they suck at telling us things. And we've seen so much of 5e and have been in a holding patter for so long there much less they can tease us with.
Because WotC is so terrible at this, we get our information elsewhere and the official site has slowly become old news.

This is alllllllll just you. The rest of us have been just fine talking about what they publish, and what news comes out, however it comes out. You've built up all this dramatic tension where there isn't any for most people out there.

It really sounds like YOU want it done a certain way, and when it's not done that way, you build up reasons why it was bad to not do it the way you'd have done it. But...none of your reasons are really that meaningful to most people.

We all learned about the warlock about it after the Twitch game, before Mearls wrote his article.

And this was clearly by intent. You claim they do it just by articles, but he even said during the game he was doing it there in the game, publishing the game for everyone to see, and then he would follow up with an article. THAT was his intent - but you're pretending it was his intent to do it through the article first apparently? With not a single shred of evidence to back that up other than, apparently, how you think it should have been done.

And everything he "revealed" about the sorcerer was kinda already known after the 24-hour Charity game a few months back.

For those who paid attention to the charity game, yes. And for those who did not, they got it from the article. There is no screw-up there - it's just not how you wanted it done apparently.

When I want to hear about D&D news I go to ENWorld first, then ICv2, and a couple blogs. And most of the time I hear about news from Twitter first. There's no real reason to visit the D&D site and thus I am unexposed to their hype.

But you're under the mis-impression their intent is to drive all news through their site, rather than using multiple means to distribute their news through multiple platforms. You know, like most modern companies do. Driving all news to one location just isn't how it's done in the new media world anymore. You do it through many different social media roads. We're all finding out simultaneously no matter where the information is published first - where it's published first no longer has much meaning to people. Put the data out there, by any means, and everyone will get it if it is newsworthy. And...they won't go digging through your site to find other data, they will just dive in and start talking about it right away.

And they've kept us waiting for so long. We've heard "we can't talk about products" for two years. And we really want them to talk about products. And now someone else has come along and beaten them to talking about their own products. So now anything they say on the subject just won't feel as impressive or "must read".

It was never impressive or must-read to hear about a more specific release date and price point. Someone would have posted it, and that would have been it, just like this one. It's not enough information to write an article about it - it's just two data points.

Seriously, you've made this claim that it's a big deal, but your only support is vague generalities combined with sky is falling disaster conclusions. SHOW ME WHAT A MORE "IMPORTANT" INFORMATION RELEASE OF THIS IDENTICAL INFORMATION WOULD LOOK LIKE. Without more, it's just almost nothing! How is this on the level of spoiling the Oscars? Substantiate your point already. Because right now it sounds like, "I'd have done this different" combined with, "How can I bash Wizards more today".
 
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LOL let me see if I get this straight - if something doesn't matter, then if they say "I don't have a comment" that means it matters?

Seriously, you've gone beyond stretching it. You've now literally said it matters no matter what they do or do not say, as opposed to figuratively. You actually said "no comment" means something.



Why? How do you know this isn't their schedule, and why do you think it matters to them at all, much less "very much"? Where are you getting this from. I want your source cited for where you're getting this, because it really looks like you, and you alone, going off on this part of the topic. Everyone else is just talking about the price and date. If it was so important, SOMEONE would have made the argument as to WHY it is important and how this has done something damaging in some way to someone's bottom line.



Show me where they say they care about how you find out the price and release month? You're just making bald assertions and then claiming it's fact.



This has nothing to do with a price and more specific release date range for 5e. NOTHING. There's no association at all between the two.



Right...and finding out from B&N instead of from WOTC changes this how exactly? Or that this was an "important" information release why?



Except they did the last two in press releases not even on their main site. Meanwhile a bunch comes through Twitter responses. And then some more from YouTube. And then sometimes from interviews. There is no pattern or practice of what you claim to be happening, actually being the case.



This is alllllllll just you. The rest of us have been just fine talking about what they publish, and what news comes out, however it comes out. You've built up all this dramatic tension where there isn't any for most people out there.

It really sounds like YOU want it done a certain way, and when it's not done that way, you build up reasons why it was bad to not do it the way you'd have done it. But...none of your reasons are really that meaningful to most people.



And this was clearly by intent. You claim they do it just by articles, but he even said during the game he was doing it there in the game, publishing the game for everyone to see, and then he would follow up with an article. THAT was his intent - but you're pretending it was his intent to do it through the article first apparently? With not a single shred of evidence to back that up other than, apparently, how you think it should have been done.



For those who paid attention to the charity game, yes. And for those who did not, they got it from the article. There is no screw-up there - it's just not how you wanted it done apparently.



But you're under the mis-impression their intent is to drive all news through their site, rather than using multiple means to distribute their news through multiple platforms. You know, like most modern companies do. Driving all news to one location just isn't how it's done in the new media world anymore. You do it through many different social media roads. We're all finding out simultaneously no matter where the information is published first - where it's published first no longer has much meaning to people. Put the data out there, by any means, and everyone will get it if it is newsworthy. And...they won't go digging through your site to find other data, they will just dive in and start talking about it right away.



It was never impressive or must-read to hear about a more specific release date and price point. Someone would have posted it, and that would have been it, just like this one. It's not enough information to write an article about it - it's just two data points.

Seriously, you've made this claim that it's a big deal, but your only support is vague generalities combined with sky is falling disaster conclusions. SHOW ME WHAT A MORE "IMPORTANT" INFORMATION RELEASE OF THIS IDENTICAL INFORMATION WOULD LOOK LIKE. Without more, it's just almost nothing! How is this on the level of spoiling the Oscars? Substantiate your point already. Because right now it sounds like, "I'd have done this different" combined with, "How can I bash Wizards more today".
Whatever.
I just don't care any more.
 


See, even you don't care! And you were the only one that seemed to be caring about it begin with :)
Actually I just really do not like your tone and am getting nothing from this but irritated. So I'm bowing out now before one or both of us say something that gets us banned.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
So in other words, you *won't* pay $50. I wonder if WotC is jacking up the wholesale price (given some of the inflation calculators show $10 over previous books) to get a bit more after the inevitable internet point of sale discounting. Or perhaps the page count is just larger.

Kind of sucks for your FLGS if they have to retail at $50 for a brand-new product release and compete against a $35 price on line.

Personally, I'll pay a $35 discount price. For $50 including discount, it had better be a complete core rules, or within one book (+MM) of doing so (for the record, I only bought the Pathfinder Basic guide since my 3.X stuff was usable).

I would probably pay $50 if I had too, but I won't have to. Of course I reserve the right to change my mind once I actually see the book.
 

I seem to be a strange outlier here. I'm fine with a $50 price point (meaning $150 for the PHB, DMG and MM).

I say this as someone who lives in Australia, so my chances of getting them for $50 each after postage are probably slim (probably only possible via Amazon).

That said, I think people need to not get too worked up about this until more information comes to hand.

Strangely, I'm on the other side of the fence when it comes to the D&D Insider model. The idea of paying $10/month to access all of the rulebooks, character builder and Dragon & Dungeon articles doesn't seem to appeal to me.

I used to subscribe to both Dragon and Dungeon magazine, which cost more than $10/month, so you think that I would be all over the D&D Insider deal, but for some reason I'm not.
 

D'karr

Adventurer
I used to subscribe to both Dragon and Dungeon magazine, which cost more than $10/month, so you think that I would be all over the D&D Insider deal, but for some reason I'm not.

This probably has to do with the "ownership" of the material. I subscribed for years to the mazines. When they went all digital I continued to subscribe for quite a while. But when I let my subscription lapse I no longer had access to the material that I paid for. If I forgot to download it to a permanent location then I was S-O-L.

That is probably why the electronic subscription model might not be as attractive.
 

DMZ2112

Chaotic Looseleaf
All right, this one's a little incendiary. I apologize up front.

Also, several people have mentioned an OGL and freely available rules online as an incentive to purchase a $50 rulebook. Isn't it a disincentive? If I can get the same rules for free, why spend the money on the book?

Personally, I spend the money on the book even though the same rules are available online for free because I'm not a dick. Not that anyone else is a dick, necessarily. That's just why I buy the book. Because I'm not a dick.

Why do they have to retail it at $50?

Because they like to eat, Mistwell.

The market may bear the price, but I wouldn't expect the market to grow very much either. $50 suggests that outside of the Starter Set (which could be great or terrible, no way to know yet) Wizards doesn't care about D&D's appeal to novice gamers anymore. Which is not only unfortunate, it's a bad long-term strategy.

On what do you base this theory? The hypothesis that novice gamers don't have $50 to spend? I assume we are talking about children here, as that is the only justification I can think of for such a hypothesis. That being the case, I know of /many/ people born in the 21st century with XBox Ones and Playstation 4s, and plenty of games to play on them. The $50 price tag is no obstacle to children.

Agreed that this is another problem with the price, but a) until now, D&D had been the exception and not the rule in saddling FLGS with expensive core rulebooks and b) I don't think Wizards is worried about FLGS (which is also unfortunate).

I think they recognize that FLGSes grow the hobby. Keep in mind the D&D folks sit down the hall from the Magic: the Gathering folks -- I'm not sure you can work in such close proximity to a ludicrous success story like M:TG and not understand the value of the FLGS.

That said, if D&D has to choose between its own survival and the survival of the brick-and-mortars, it's going to pick its own survival every time -- and the FLGSes get left holding the bag (or in this case the confusing, conflicting product lines and cases upon cases of Fortune Cards).

I would say that Wizards of the Coast are a little too sure of themselves and their product.

What they need to realize is there are a number of people who felt they were burned by 4th edition and will not go in headlong again without at least checking it out first.

No, what the internet echo chamber needs to realize is that most fantasy RPG fans out there have enjoyed every iteration of D&D they've played, to a greater or lesser extent, even if it ultimately wasn't really their thing, and upgrade to the new version when it comes out because it is "the new rules." D&D5 may fail by Hasbro's or even Wizards' fiscal yardstick, but it is still going to outsell every 13th Age, OSR, Savage Worlds, and FATE product -- combined. And if I were feeling cocky, I'd add World of Darkness and Shadowrun to that list, as well.

Wizards of the Coast does not live or die by the community -- the community lives or dies by Wizards of the Coast. That might be less true now that Paizo has had such runaway success, but don't make the mistake of assuming that Wizards cares that some folks disapprove of what they've been doing. Behind those grumblers are ten fold more people who would be shouting "shut up and take my money" if they knew about that meme, but they don't, because they're not part of the internet echo chamber.

And even if that were not the case, $50 is not an unreasonable price for this product on the free market.
 
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JEB

Legend
On what do you base this theory? The hypothesis that novice gamers don't have $50 to spend? I assume we are talking about children here, as that is the only justification I can think of for such a hypothesis.

Close - I'm referring to teenagers, the audience most likely to take a risk on D&D for the first time, and probably the most important for growing the hobby. Now, unless being a teenager has changed a lot since my days, money is a rare and precious resource at that age. If you want teenagers to spend their money on D&D, then you'd best aim for as low a price as possible - the cheaper it is, the more likely they are to take a chance on it. If it's anything they have to save up for, even a little, it's going to look less attractive than surer bets (board games and particularly video games).

I know of /many/ people born in the 21st century with XBox Ones and Playstation 4s, and plenty of games to play on them. The $50 price tag is no obstacle to children.

How many teenagers really buy $50-$60 video games at full price? Even among the young adults I know, most either wait for sales or used copies, or compensate for the cost through trade-ins, or hope someone else buys it for them as a present. Only the hottest of the hot games get bought new. Further, video games are a known quantity to younger people, and with multiplayer online games, you can always find people to play with. D&D has neither of these advantages.

Again, pricing D&D at $50 might be fine for veterans, but it makes it a harder sell for new audiences. And that's a bad idea for the long run.

And even if that were not the case, $50 is not an unreasonable price for this product on the free market.

Reasonable is not the same as wise.
 

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