Initiative order & multiple attacks.

werk said:
I would urge you to learn the game before you try to 'fix' it, or just play another game that you know.

I agree with this. My last campaign had several house rules that we added in that really didn't add anything to the game, apart from make things more complicated. In a couple of cases, it made a couple of loopholes that our resident powergamer tried to exploit.

In the new campaign that has just started I have gotten rid of a lot of these house rules and just gone back to the RAW for the most part. The house rules that I have kept are generally pretty minor or use optional rules such possibly requiring training for skill, feats and prestige classes.

Olaf the Stout
 

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The last time I checked there were no Rules Police who were going to come and arrest us for tweaking things here and there. Part of the beauty of role-playing games is how amorphous and adaptable they are. I bet even the most neurotic DMs, who try to conform to every single rule ever written, occasionally allow actions that the game designers might not sanction, if only because of unconscious misinterpretation of the designers' intentions. Does the world end when that happens? No, because again, that's the beauty of the game: It doesn't matter, as long as everyone has fun.

I am just a little uncomfortable with one particular rule. As I posted before, if a round is 6 seconds long, and a fighter can make 4 attacks in a round, then I assume it takes the fighter 6 seconds to make those 4 attacks. If his opponent is not able to make a single attack before the fighter has made all 4 of his attacks, then his opponent is not making his first attack until after the 6th second -- not until the subsequent round. That just doesn't make sense to me. Therefore, I have chosen to tweak the rule a little bit. It isn't the end of the world. I fail to see why I should abandon D&D simply because I disagree with one little rule. Especially when it can be modified so easily.

I wonder what the game designers would say... "Hey guys, I'm thinking about buying your core rulebooks, but in practice I think I might modify a couple of the rules. Should I still buy your books, or would I be better off just playing a different game?"
 

doosler said:
I am just a little uncomfortable with one particular rule.
:lol:

That's not likely, is it? Come on: there's more than one particular rule you are uncomfortable with. :D

Making up new house rules as you go along might be a fine way to play a role-playing game.
 

In defense of the RAW, I've always considered a round to contain all sorts of swings and feints and misses, parries, etc, and the attack that you roll for is that one golden opportunity when the enemy leaves his proverbial shield raised a little too high. For me, multiple attacks do not represent the speed of the attacker per se, but rather their ability to identify opportunities or to take advantage of smaller openings with their superior skill. When my turn comes to attack, I imagine a series of vicious blows, after which, successful or not, I retreat back behind my shield and catch my breath on the defensive. (I realize I changed voice about ten times there.)

In other games, I picture other things. In Shadowrun 1st edition, it made perfect sense that the person with the wired reflexes went before everyone else. I had far more problems with the fact that a grenade couldn't kill you.

I also enjoyed the Chaosium-Avalon Hill version of Runequest, where each round was ten segments long, and depending on your dexterity, etc., you might act on segments 1, 4 and 7 for example. Or maybe that was in a different game. I know the Hero System used something similar as well.

With few exceptions, once the group gets used to a system, things can go pretty fast.

Play the game the way you want to. If your house rule doesn't work out for some reason, try something else out. Not a big deal either way. Just be sure your players know how you're going to run it.
 

doosler said:
As I posted before, if a round is 6 seconds long, and a fighter can make 4 attacks in a round, then I assume it takes the fighter 6 seconds to make those 4 attacks. If his opponent is not able to make a single attack before the fighter has made all 4 of his attacks, then his opponent is not making his first attack until after the 6th second -- not until the subsequent round.

How will you deal with 5' steps and reach?

Let's say we have two fighters, one with a longsword and one with a longspear, each with a BAB of 16 - 4 attacks on a full attack action.

Let's say they start adjacent to each other, and the longsword wins initiative.

Under the RAW:
Round 1: Longsword fighter attacks 4 times.
Longspear fighter takes a 5' step (since he cannot attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks 4 times.

Round 2: Longsword fighter takes a 5' step (since he can only attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks 4 times.
Longspear fighter takes a 5' step (since he cannot attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks 4 times.

In two rounds, each fighter has made two full attacks, for a total of eight attacks each.

Now we assume that attacks must alternate instead.
Round 1: Longsword fighter attacks.
Longspear fighter takes a 5' step (since he cannot attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks.
Longsword fighter takes a 5' step and attacks.
Longspear fighter cannot attack - he's too close - and he can't move any further away, since he's already taken a 5' step. He can't do anything else.
Longsword fighter attacks twice more.

Round 2: same as before.

In two rounds, the longsword fighter has made two full attacks, for a total of eight attacks; the longspear fighter has only made one attack each round.

----

Will you change the way 5' steps work in order to prevent your alternating attack rule from having this effect?

----

Let's say we have a dagger thrower, who gets four attacks a round, and an opponent who is ten feet away. The daggerman wins initiative.

Round 1: Daggerman throws 4 daggers at no penalty for range.
Opponent moves 60 feet (two move actions).

Round 2: Opponent is out of range for a thrown dagger, so the daggerman must move 30 feet and then throw a single dagger at a -4 penalty.
Opponent retreats further.

How does your house rule play out in this situation?
Round 1: Daggerman throws one dagger at no penalty. How far does the opponent move before the second dagger is thrown? A third of sixty feet? A single move action?

----

Let's say we have a sorcerer casting an Empowered Fireball defensively. This requires a full-round action, but the casting does not extend outside his own turn, so under the RAW, the only way to disrupt the casting is with a readied action. But if it takes his whole turn, then presumably under your ruling - even though he has won initiative - his opponent (who has four attacks) will get at least three of them in before he finishes. Do these attacks have a chance to disrupt the spell?

Let's say he's casting a normal Fireball, which only requires a standard action. He can cast the spell and move - that's two things. His opponent can make four attacks - that's four things. For consistency, even though the sorcerer won initiative, won't at least one of the opponent's four attacks occur during the casting of the spell? If it doesn't, then we're saying that a move action takes as long as four attacks, since all four attacks occur after the sorcerer's standard action, when he only has a move action remaining. But if a move action is as long as four attacks, but a standard action is faster than even one attack, that means that a standard action is faster than a move action, right? Yet we can take a move action in place of a standard action, but not vice versa.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
How will you deal with 5' steps and reach?

Let's say we have two fighters, one with a longsword and one with a longspear, each with a BAB of 16 - 4 attacks on a full attack action.

Let's say they start adjacent to each other, and the longsword wins initiative.

Under the RAW:
Round 1: Longsword fighter attacks 4 times.
Longspear fighter takes a 5' step (since he cannot attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks 4 times.

Round 2: Longsword fighter takes a 5' step (since he can only attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks 4 times.
Longspear fighter takes a 5' step (since he cannot attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks 4 times.

In two rounds, each fighter has made two full attacks, for a total of eight attacks each.

Now we assume that attacks must alternate instead.
Round 1: Longsword fighter attacks.
Longspear fighter takes a 5' step (since he cannot attack an adjacent opponent) and attacks.
Longsword fighter takes a 5' step and attacks.
Longspear fighter cannot attack - he's too close - and he can't move any further away, since he's already taken a 5' step. He can't do anything else.
Longsword fighter attacks twice more.

Round 2: same as before.

In two rounds, the longsword fighter has made two full attacks, for a total of eight attacks; the longspear fighter has only made one attack each round.

----

Will you change the way 5' steps work in order to prevent your alternating attack rule from having this effect?

----

Let's say we have a dagger thrower, who gets four attacks a round, and an opponent who is ten feet away. The daggerman wins initiative.

Round 1: Daggerman throws 4 daggers at no penalty for range.
Opponent moves 60 feet (two move actions).

Round 2: Opponent is out of range for a thrown dagger, so the daggerman must move 30 feet and then throw a single dagger at a -4 penalty.
Opponent retreats further.

How does your house rule play out in this situation?
Round 1: Daggerman throws one dagger at no penalty. How far does the opponent move before the second dagger is thrown? A third of sixty feet? A single move action?

----

Let's say we have a sorcerer casting an Empowered Fireball defensively. This requires a full-round action, but the casting does not extend outside his own turn, so under the RAW, the only way to disrupt the casting is with a readied action. But if it takes his whole turn, then presumably under your ruling - even though he has won initiative - his opponent (who has four attacks) will get at least three of them in before he finishes. Do these attacks have a chance to disrupt the spell?

Let's say he's casting a normal Fireball, which only requires a standard action. He can cast the spell and move - that's two things. His opponent can make four attacks - that's four things. For consistency, even though the sorcerer won initiative, won't at least one of the opponent's four attacks occur during the casting of the spell? If it doesn't, then we're saying that a move action takes as long as four attacks, since all four attacks occur after the sorcerer's standard action, when he only has a move action remaining. But if a move action is as long as four attacks, but a standard action is faster than even one attack, that means that a standard action is faster than a move action, right? Yet we can take a move action in place of a standard action, but not vice versa.

-Hyp.

Yep, changing that one rules brings up a lot of new situations to rule on. I'm sure Hyp hasn't even touched the tip of the iceberg either.

Olaf the Stout
 

Interesting. I must confess, I have never read the 3.5 rulebooks. I just got back into D&D after about 11 years off, and I always used to play 2nd edition (and I'm sure we fudged on a lot of the rules back then).

Hypersmurf, I can't really address your questions because I don't know how move actions work. One solution to your first scenario is to simply allow more 5' steps per round. As far as the wizard scenario, I was wondering about something similar last night (whether there were any wizard spells that take a whole round, rather than some increment of time less than a whole round). I don't know. Maybe you guys are right. Maybe it isn't worth messing with the rules. :D I'd like to give you more of a debate on this one, but as I said, I just don't know all of these rules.

When it comes time to DM my friends, I still think I'll try tweaking things a little, and we'll probably work some things out as we go. If any of my friends decide to be hardcore rule sticklers, then perhaps we'll have to get down to the nitty gritty of the rules to accomodate their concerns. Otherwise, perhaps we'll just fudge our way though it.
 

doosler said:
Maybe it isn't worth messing with the rules. :D I'd like to give you more of a debate on this one, but as I said, I just don't know all of these rules.

I'm all for messing with the rules to get the gaming experience that suits you and your group, but I do think knowing the rules well beforehand is a really good idea, since it makes it more likely that you understand exactly what you're messing with and avoid unexpected repercussions.

In this case, I do think changing the way multiple attacks work is a horribly bad idea. It may sound reasonable that a character shouldn't be able to make multiple attacks without the enemy retaliating at all, but then it also sounds reasonable that you shouldn't be able to take your entire move for the round without everyone else on the battlefield being able to do something in that time. So in the interests of fairness, when a PC moves 30 feet, you should let every other combatant (ally or enemy) do something in that time. And if 30 feet, then why not 25, or 20, or even 5? Taken to its "logical" conclusion, your idea means that whenever someone spends any time doing something, you need to cycle through everyone else on the battlefield to see if they manage to do something too. That way lies madness.
 

doosler said:
Hypersmurf, I can't really address your questions because I don't know how move actions work. One solution to your first scenario is to simply allow more 5' steps per round. As far as the wizard scenario, I was wondering about something similar last night (whether there were any wizard spells that take a whole round, rather than some increment of time less than a whole round). I don't know. Maybe you guys are right. Maybe it isn't worth messing with the rules. :D I'd like to give you more of a debate on this one, but as I said, I just don't know all of these rules.

The summon monster and nature's ally spells all take 1 full round to cast - so they fall into this category (and they are real common to use by the way - especially since a druid can freely substitute summon nature's ally for an equivalent spell).

When it comes time to DM my friends, I still think I'll try tweaking things a little, and we'll probably work some things out as we go. If any of my friends decide to be hardcore rule sticklers, then perhaps we'll have to get down to the nitty gritty of the rules to accomodate their concerns. Otherwise, perhaps we'll just fudge our way though it.

I don't really think anyone said you couldn't do that. I believe that people are pointing out the "ramafications" of such a decision, and specifically cautioning you not to "blindly" make any changes and to look ahead at what can be affected by any house-rules.

I know that several people have pointed out that when they made house-rules those house-rules ended up causing other things to require changes and so on and so on {insert Brecht commercial}.

Just be careful when making changing and before doing so lay them out with regards to the other rules before hand to ensure you have thought it out as well as you can. And most definitely make sure that your players are on board and understand what the house-rules are before you implement them.
 

doosler said:
...I am just a little uncomfortable with one particular rule. As I posted before, if a round is 6 seconds long, and a fighter can make 4 attacks in a round, then I assume it takes the fighter 6 seconds to make those 4 attacks. If his opponent is not able to make a single attack before the fighter has made all 4 of his attacks, then his opponent is not making his first attack until after the 6th second -- not until the subsequent round. That just doesn't make sense to me. ...

You are laboring under a misconception. Everyone operates within the same six seconds, but, for convenience, sanity and to work well with the rest of the rules, you take all your actions (except "Immediate Actions") during your turn within the round.

Actually, if you have not yet read the rules (or perhaps purchased them), I suggest you wait and start in D&D again with 4e rules.

In 3.5 you'll find that you have to do endless tweaking if you proceed as you propose.
 
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