Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[Will]

Other support:
War Chanter, Complete Warrior, gets 'combine songs' ability:
Combine Songs (Su): A war chanter of 5th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in any Perform skill can combine two types of bardic music or war chanter music to provide the benefits of both.

From Races of Stone, the bard spell Greater Harmonize:
You blend magic and music seamlessly. While this spell is in effect, starting a bardic music effect requires only a move action. In addition, concentrating on a bardic music effect that requires concentration only requires a move action.
For example, this benefit means that you can maintain concentration on a bardic music effect and cast a spell, make an attack, or begin (or maintain) another bardic music effect.

If activating bardic music didn't interrupt maintained bardic music, why would they talk about this benefit?

 

[Will]

Artoomis: No question the rules as written don't specify that you can't do what you're saying.

But I'm arguing the restriction _is_ a natural one flowing from the class description, the nature of the ability, and the general tone of the writing. They just didn't think to specify.

Given the number of effects they say can't be done while maintaining bardic music (ALL bardic music), the special abilities and extras from other bardic sources to ALLOW extra bardic music, I think the intent is pretty clear. A lot of folks think the intent is clear.

 

[Artoomis]

Other support:
War Chanter, Complete Warrior, gets 'combine songs' ability:
Combine Songs (Su): A war chanter of 5th level or higher with 12 or more ranks in any Perform skill can combine two types of bardic music or war chanter music to provide the benefits of both.

Not relevant - this just means you can use one action for two songs!

From Races of Stone, the bard spell Greater Harmonize:
You blend magic and music seamlessly. While this spell is in effect, starting a bardic music effect requires only a move action. In addition, concentrating on a bardic music effect that requires concentration only requires a move action.
For example, this benefit means that you can maintain concentration on a bardic music effect and cast a spell, make an attack, or begin (or maintain) another bardic music effect.

If activating bardic music didn't interrupt maintained bardic music, why would they talk about this benefit?

This does not help you because it says you can "maintain concentration on a bardic music effect" and do other things. This is a huge benefit, but the "Inspire" abilities don't require concentration. It means you could, for example, use "Fascinate" and start and maintain "Inspire Courage" at the same time.

BTW: I need this spell for my bard!!!! What is its level and duration? I can't look at Races of Stone until Thursday. Starting a bardic music ability has a move action is HUGE.

Edit:

Re-reading this spell (I found the book), it allows "concentration" to take a move action rather than a standard action. It also allows a bard to start a music ability as a move action, which is pretty huge, and the same as "Harmonize."

As written it would have no effect whatsoever on "maintaining" two bardic songs that both do not require concentration. The implication is that they realize no such help is needed as songs that do not require concentration already can be used together. Otherwise, one would think they would mention this as it would be a lesser power than overiding the concentration rules.

 

[Artoomis]

Artoomis: No question the rules as written don't specify that you can't do what you're saying.

But I'm arguing the restriction _is_ a natural one flowing from the class description, the nature of the ability, and the general tone of the writing. They just didn't think to specify.

Given the number of effects they say can't be done while maintaining bardic music (ALL bardic music), the special abilities and extras from other bardic sources to ALLOW extra bardic music, I think the intent is pretty clear. A lot of folks think the intent is clear.

The "number of effects they say can't be done" is specifically limited and does not inlcude "spell-like" or "supernatural" abilites.

I wonder what that says about intent?

Again, if this restriction was really desired (and maybe it was), they did the did a most excellent job in hiding that when they wrote the rules.

 

[Will]

Artoomis:
'This does not help you because it says you can "maintain concentration on a bardic music effect" and do other things. This is a huge benefit, but the "Inspire" abilities don't require concentration. It means you could, for example, use "Fascinate" and start and maintain "Inspire Courage" at the same time.'

Ah. But it says you can maintain concentration AND maintain another bardic music effect.

Non-concentration bardic music only requires a free action to maintain.

By your argument, I can already maintain an Inspire while maintaining bardic music requiring concentration.

If I could already do that, why bother mentioning it as a benefit?

 

[Artoomis]

Artoomis:
'This does not help you because it says you can "maintain concentration on a bardic music effect" and do other things. This is a huge benefit, but the "Inspire" abilities don't require concentration. It means you could, for example, use "Fascinate" and start and maintain "Inspire Courage" at the same time.'

Ah. But it says you can maintain concentration AND maintain another bardic music effect.

Non-concentration bardic music only requires a free action to maintain.

By your argument, I can already maintain an Inspire while maintaining bardic music requiring concentration.

If I could already do that, why bother mentioning it as a benefit?

True, but... I could not start and maintain (only maintain) an existing "Inspire" effect by the rules, so the text is needed (though only the "start" part).

Of course, that's assuming the "Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration..." was not interpreted to mean that using an bardic music ability that requires concentration precludes using or maintaining any other bardic music ability. That's a reasonble interpretation of the above quote, but debatable.

The rules for non-spell uses of concentration are a bit weak, but I think it may be reasonable to say that one cannot (without feats or a spell like Greater Harmonize) maintain an "Inspire" effect while concentrating (as in using a Standard Action to maintain concentration) on something else.

What you may or may not do while "concentrating" on a bardic music effect is a whole different discussion, I think.