Inspire Courage + Greatness + Heriocs

[Nifft]

Actually:

(1) Core dragons do not advance by class, so you won't find a bardic dragon.

Actually: some Dragons have a listed Level Adjustment. They are suitable for play as PCs, and can take class levels. Read up on Level Adjustment in the SRD:

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level

To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.

Therefore, the dragon bard may use a supernatrual breath weapon without stopping the maintenance of a bardic "inspire" ability.

As to the rest... that's what I said. It's a consequence of that interpretation. Possibly unintended, which is why it was brought up.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

I am very confused by this statement. Since there has been much discussion, can you summarize how you have, using the rules, addressed each of the following:

No, but it's all there right here in this thread. Just scroll up.

No new performance is required to start a different "Inspire" ability.

This is the one that I'm unable to find a rule which contradicts.

-- N

 

[Will]

Not directly applicable, but from the FAQ:
What type of action does it take for a bard to keep singing or reciting poetry?

Unless the ability states that it requires concentration (a standard action), it doesn’t require any kind of action to maintain a bardic music effect. Technically, a bard incapable of taking any actions wouldn’t be able to maintain a bardic music effect, so it’s probably safest to describe it as a free action (like talking).


RAW is unclear. But it's often unclear; I don't think the lack of detail in this instance is solid evidence that allowance is intended.

As for RAI:
Maintaining a bard song precludes you from casting ANY spell. It also precludes you from using a command word.

Yes, there is such a thing as contrapuntal music, but consider those two restrictions: not being able to cast a spell (or use a wand) suggests that maintaining a bard spell requires some element of distraction and concentration, even if it isn't difficult enough to warrant Concentration checks.

But the damning part (IMO) is the restriction against command word, particularly when you combine the lack of any comment about type of Performance; you can be playing the drums or a sitar, yet you cannot utter a command word.

Given 'command word activation' is nothing more than enunciating something like 'Alcazar,' I think it's fairly solid that the intent is you can't maintain more than one instance of bardic music at a time.

Further evidence from Complete Arcane, the prestige class 'Seeker of the Song,' which is a bard PrC that focuses on bardic music. 'Seeker music' PrC ability adds new effects, and contains the following:
'Some seeker music effects include a secondary effect, called a refrain. In any round when a seeker concentrates on a seeker music effect and expends another use of bardic music, she can activate the refrain associated with that seeker music effect. Using a refrain is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The original effects of the song do not end; the seeker can maintain the song and activate the refrain simultaneously.'

Argument here is why would the writers specify that you can maintain these two different instances of seeker music if you can always do so anyway?

 

[Artoomis]

Actually: some Dragons have a listed Level Adjustment. They are suitable for play as PCs, and can take class levels. Read up on Level Adjustment in the SRD:

I'll take your word for it on that "LA" exists for some dragons. It's incidental to this discussion anyway.

As to the rest... that's what I said. It's a consequence of that interpretation. Possibly unintended, which is why it was brought up.

-- N

You may have overlooked that my response had nothing to do with "that interpretation," assuming you mean Hyp's take on this.

My response was simply looking down the stated rules on what it takes to maintain one of the bardic song abilities. The rules there are quite specific and allow the use of Su abilites.

The thing I find odd is that using an item with a command word stops the maintenance of one of these abilites, but the use of any Su ability does not. Weird, maybe, but them's the rules.

 

[Artoomis]

No, but it's all there right here in this thread. Just scroll up...
-- N

Oh, c'mon now. I went through the effort of summarizing all my argument into one neat and clean post so you could refute it.

"Just scroll up" is not a terribly helpful response to that.

I really am very interested you (or anyone else) providing a point-by-point rebuttal.

 

[Set]

It's not actually a loop hole.

Inspire Courage isn't in itself a class ability, it's a use of the underlying class ability (Bardic Music). This is similar to Wild Shape (tiny) and Wild Shape (plant). You can't gain the benefit of Wild Shape twice at the same time, nor can you use Bardic Music twice at the same time.

Cheers, -- N

That's one example.

This logic applied to other class abilities;

Rebuke Undead. If you've Commanded six zombies, does that effect end immediately when you try to Rebuke something else?

Spellcasting. If you've cast a Wall of Force, does it go down if you cast Magic Missile?

The 'duration' of the various Bardic Song sub-abilities is 'as long as you keep singing,' and if you spend your next round singing to start up a second song. There is a laundry list of things you can't do while maintaining a song, and starting up another song as a Supernatural Ability is *not* on that list.

 

[Artoomis]

...RAW is unclear. But it's often unclear; I don't think the lack of detail in this instance is solid evidence that allowance is intended.

?? RAW is very clear. A Supernatural ability may be used while maintaining a bardic music "Inspire" ability. Starting a bardic music "Inspire" ability is a Supernatural ability.

Ergo, while maintaining one "Inspire" ability, you can start another one. Whether or not that was intended, the RAW is very clear.

As for RAI:
...But the damning part (IMO) is the restriction against command word, particularly when you combine the lack of any comment about type of Performance; you can be playing the drums or a sitar, yet you cannot utter a command word.

Given 'command word activation' is nothing more than enunciating something like 'Alcazar,' I think it's fairly solid that the intent is you can't maintain more than one instance of bardic music at a time...

That's a bit of a leap. If that logic were true, more action others than those listed shoudl be phbiited. Actions such as using a Spell-Like ability or a Supernatural ability.

Actually, given 'command word activation' is nothing more than enunciating something like 'Alcazar,' one would have to wonder why uttering a command word is a Standard Action ("...Activating a command word magic item is a standard action...") even though "the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation".

The rules are often more easily understood than logically explained.

Further evidence from Complete Arcane, the prestige class 'Seeker of the Song,' which is a bard PrC that focuses on bardic music. 'Seeker music' PrC ability adds new effects, and contains the following:

'Some seeker music effects include a secondary effect, called a refrain. In any round when a seeker concentrates on a seeker music effect and expends another use of bardic music, she can activate the refrain associated with that seeker music effect. Using a refrain is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The original effects of the song do not end; the seeker can maintain the song and activate the refrain simultaneously.'

Argument here is why would the writers specify that you can maintain these two different instances of seeker music if you can always do so anyway?

To avoid any potential confusion? I don't have Complete Arcane, so I can't look up things like what types of actions these are (Su? Sp?) etc. I'd really need to see the whole class description to be able to better address your point.

Having said that, what was oringally intended might not be what actually got done. in other wordf, if they intended to mean that only one "Inspire" ability could be maintained at a time, they did a woefully poor job if writing the rules since the rules, as written, actually allow it.

In any case, this would hardly be the only place in the rules that contained techically unnecessary explanations that were included, one assumes, for clarity.

 

[Will]

That the rules don't specifically say that multiple bardic music instances can't be maintained at once, no argument. But it would also hardly be the only place in the rules where an intended effect was not clearly explained. (See half the discussions on the Rules subforum, or the entire FAQ)

Seeker song uses are all Supernatural effects. Refrains are untyped.

 

[mvincent]

it would also hardly be the only place in the rules where an intended effect was not clearly explained.

Exactly. Another one of those "well, the rules don't say you go prone when unconscious" sillinesses.

 

[Artoomis]

That the rules don't specifically say that multiple bardic music instances can't be maintained at once, no argument. But it would also hardly be the only place in the rules where an intended effect was not clearly explained. (See half the discussions on the Rules subforum, or the entire FAQ)

Seeker song uses are all Supernatural effects. Refrains are untyped.

Thanks for the info.

I am having a little trouble with "not clearly explained.' I admit it may not be immediately obvious, but:

1. All the "Inspire" abilities last "for as long as the ally hears the bard sing ..."

2. Sing, of course, means: "reciting poetry, chanting, singing lyrical songs, singing melodies, whistling, playing an instrument, or playing an instrument in combination with some spoken performance." (That is not relevant, I think, but included for completeness.)

3. The following actions cannot be done while maintaining an "Inspire" effect: "cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word."

4. Starting one of the "Inspire" effects is a Supernatural ability.

5. Using a Supernatural ability is not on the list of actions that cannot be done while maintaining an "Inspire" effect.

All indisputable rule facts.

Conclusion: A bard can start a new "Inspire" effect (using a Su ability while maintaining a different one because:

1. The bard has not stopped "singing."

2. The allies can still hear the bard.

3. The bard has not taken any action which stops the maintenance of the "Inspire" effect.

The "rule" that is mentioned over and over about having to stop a song in order to start a new effect seems to be made up out of whole cloth.

I am not arguing over whether that would be a reasonable restriction, just that it is not the rule as written. It's an additional restriction one would impose not coming from the bard calss description of using and maintaining the effects of bardic music abilites.

Maybe they really did intend that one could not use another bardic music ability if still maintaining one, and, if so, it's a shame that this is not what the rules state, and do so rather unambiguosly, as shown above in this very post.