le Redoutable
Ich bin El Glouglou :)
... and sorry I'm not responsible for Fireball being a low-level spell, while Energy Drain is on top 
D&D General instead of using spells slots ...
- Thread starter le Redoutable
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Thunderfoot
Hero
Do you know what keeps mages from casting FIREBALL??? Salamanders and Fire Giants. lmao.
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Guest 7034872
Guest
Hi all,
I do get the idea of having to memorize a limited number of spells for each day's casting, but I agree with the nay-sayers here that it still makes the caster too powerful for the game to stay fun.
Many years ago, I played a game system called "Rollmaster" (or something like that...) by Iron Crown Entertainment, and they had a mana pool system for the spellcasters. So I played this weird thing called a "Sorcerer" (those didn't exist in D&D yet--it was the 80s) and I immediately discovered that these guys were absurdly powerful. Having that pool of points to draw from freely just made my guy way, way too strong (IMO).
Fast forward to two years ago: a few years ago I played a D&D spellcaster who used what effectively were mana points and it quickly became obvious to everyone my character was overpowered. It was a playtest class WotC had in Unearthed Arcana called the "Mystic" (an awesome idea that just never worked out). I know, I know--there were dozens of things that made that class badly overpowered. Absolutely. But the mana points system was one of those things.
When I created the character, I figured he would be a very versatile sort of Swiss army knife and a great tracker; boy, was I wrong. He was way beyond "versatile." Even just at first level he was some preposterous sort of rampaging, game-breaking killbot. By the time I hit fifth level, he was slaughtering whole parties of frost giants like they were baby kobolds and calmly strolling away with a toothpick in his mouth.
I'm not speaking about im/plausibility for the backstory account of how magic works: just game mechanics. Having a pool of "psi points" with no restrictions on how my guy used them just made him way too flexible as a caster. After two sessions I seriously thought about having him commit suicide by kamikaze against some much-too-big foe just to get rid of him and roll up a new character. I figured if I wanted a pool of mana points, I could play a Monk. Ultimately, we decided against that and went through the whole campaign with him, but I resolved never again to play a spellcaster with a pool of points who can just do anything s/he wants with them. Given the way the game system is built, I think it's important casters have serious restrictions on their day-to-day spellcasting options.
So in terms of a consistent account of how magic works in one's imaginary world, I think mana points make much, much more sense than spell slots, but for game mechanics I just can't see it.
I do get the idea of having to memorize a limited number of spells for each day's casting, but I agree with the nay-sayers here that it still makes the caster too powerful for the game to stay fun.
Many years ago, I played a game system called "Rollmaster" (or something like that...) by Iron Crown Entertainment, and they had a mana pool system for the spellcasters. So I played this weird thing called a "Sorcerer" (those didn't exist in D&D yet--it was the 80s) and I immediately discovered that these guys were absurdly powerful. Having that pool of points to draw from freely just made my guy way, way too strong (IMO).
Fast forward to two years ago: a few years ago I played a D&D spellcaster who used what effectively were mana points and it quickly became obvious to everyone my character was overpowered. It was a playtest class WotC had in Unearthed Arcana called the "Mystic" (an awesome idea that just never worked out). I know, I know--there were dozens of things that made that class badly overpowered. Absolutely. But the mana points system was one of those things.
When I created the character, I figured he would be a very versatile sort of Swiss army knife and a great tracker; boy, was I wrong. He was way beyond "versatile." Even just at first level he was some preposterous sort of rampaging, game-breaking killbot. By the time I hit fifth level, he was slaughtering whole parties of frost giants like they were baby kobolds and calmly strolling away with a toothpick in his mouth.
I'm not speaking about im/plausibility for the backstory account of how magic works: just game mechanics. Having a pool of "psi points" with no restrictions on how my guy used them just made him way too flexible as a caster. After two sessions I seriously thought about having him commit suicide by kamikaze against some much-too-big foe just to get rid of him and roll up a new character. I figured if I wanted a pool of mana points, I could play a Monk. Ultimately, we decided against that and went through the whole campaign with him, but I resolved never again to play a spellcaster with a pool of points who can just do anything s/he wants with them. Given the way the game system is built, I think it's important casters have serious restrictions on their day-to-day spellcasting options.
So in terms of a consistent account of how magic works in one's imaginary world, I think mana points make much, much more sense than spell slots, but for game mechanics I just can't see it.
Thunderfoot
Hero
There is a way to make it work, but it requires a hybrid technique. Using the new ritual system and making things like location, identification, resurrection and divination rituals with long casting times and varied spell components, and lowering the number of points available per level to compensate works. The problem is it makes Vancian caster unhappy and point casters unhappy, mostly because it implements both systems and makes arguing moot. And, of course, that's really what gamer like to do. lmao.
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Guest 7034872
Guest
Huh. You know, I honestly have never thought of this idea, and it sounds more than just intriguing. Could you spell out a little more of how you'd see this working? Do you mean a whole swath of magic would be ritual stuff that didn't cost points (or perhaps cost fewer points?) but did take a long time? Because that seems like a pretty cool idea to me, though something surely would have to be done about the defensive and offensive spells, right? I mean, a version of Shield that requires a long casting time is pointless, so somehow that kind of stuff would have to be down to either spell slots or spell points, right?
Have you used this hybrid system? If so, how did it go?? I seriously would love to learn more about this approach.
Thunderfoot
Hero
Yep, all of the 'utility' magic would be very much like traditional fantasy magic. Cauldrons, incantations, material co mponents, etc. These would be cost free BUT would require the caster to set-up and perform the ritual to cast. (So non combat spells).
Meanwhile, everything else is pretty much business as usual you just remove a portion of point from the spell pool (usually 1/4 to a 1/2) and run combat spells as a point system. And yes it works yes I've done it. One cool thing is it allows for different play styles ie, say you DON'T want to RP the ritualistic magic. DM hand waves and advances the campaign clock like character training. Want a full RP experience, it allows for that too. Want a mix where you hand wave except for special encounters or events, also possible.
Most folks here know I love massive story but I always look for innovation. This was one way. Another good thing is you can tailor which spells are in which category, and under what circumstances. This system also lends to another variation, the spell power system. The best example for this system is the various 'Hand' spells. Instead of different spells at different levels, you have a basic spell 'Mage Hand' that allows you to scale as you level -want to cast Mage Hand to move a lever at 1st level 1 point. Want to use Mage Hand to punch the opposing mage to ruin his casting, 5 points to cast and so on. This also allows for fewer spells and more utility from those spells. Fire spell.. 1 point burning hands. 15 points fireball. etc. Can also use points to alter range, damage bonuses, area of effect, etc.
Meanwhile, everything else is pretty much business as usual you just remove a portion of point from the spell pool (usually 1/4 to a 1/2) and run combat spells as a point system. And yes it works yes I've done it. One cool thing is it allows for different play styles ie, say you DON'T want to RP the ritualistic magic. DM hand waves and advances the campaign clock like character training. Want a full RP experience, it allows for that too. Want a mix where you hand wave except for special encounters or events, also possible.
Most folks here know I love massive story but I always look for innovation. This was one way. Another good thing is you can tailor which spells are in which category, and under what circumstances. This system also lends to another variation, the spell power system. The best example for this system is the various 'Hand' spells. Instead of different spells at different levels, you have a basic spell 'Mage Hand' that allows you to scale as you level -want to cast Mage Hand to move a lever at 1st level 1 point. Want to use Mage Hand to punch the opposing mage to ruin his casting, 5 points to cast and so on. This also allows for fewer spells and more utility from those spells. Fire spell.. 1 point burning hands. 15 points fireball. etc. Can also use points to alter range, damage bonuses, area of effect, etc.
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Guest 7034872
Guest
[...]
This fascinates me. Would you be willing to PM me the details of the system you worked out? I'm keen to playtest it.
Thunderfoot
Hero
That pretty much is the system. The great part is that it is modular by design so each table, campaign, whatever can alter 'to taste' . Want rituals to be expensive and fewer in number? books are rare and cost a fortune. Don't like the way 'Mage Hand' scales? Change it, at the table, while you play. On the fly corrections, agreeded upon by DM and players of course, means never having to do the math perfectly the first time. Notice that mages are a little under powered increase their points by 1 or 2 per level until you find the balance. Too powerful? reverse it. It's more framework than system. And that's why it works. If you want to use points to alter spell effects make sure you make the base spell very weak but useful.
Again using the 'Mage Hand' example. Think of Disney's Fantasia and Mickey in the Sorcerer's Apprentice. Starts just with a bucket, broom and mop. Ends up with an army and a flood. While his got away from him, the concept is there. A little incantation, a cantrip if you will, learned as an apprentice that moves a small object from one place to another and is the building block of a spell that can move mountains. Each spell has to be reimagined as a category rather than a spell per se. And then altered up and up and up until. boom. massive damage spell. Obviously cures are easy, if you wanted to implement a faith version, It's the oddball spells where things go sideways. Luckily most of those, fall into the ritual category.
Again using the 'Mage Hand' example. Think of Disney's Fantasia and Mickey in the Sorcerer's Apprentice. Starts just with a bucket, broom and mop. Ends up with an army and a flood. While his got away from him, the concept is there. A little incantation, a cantrip if you will, learned as an apprentice that moves a small object from one place to another and is the building block of a spell that can move mountains. Each spell has to be reimagined as a category rather than a spell per se. And then altered up and up and up until. boom. massive damage spell. Obviously cures are easy, if you wanted to implement a faith version, It's the oddball spells where things go sideways. Luckily most of those, fall into the ritual category.
Thunderfoot
Hero
One final note.. this system will work with every edition of D&D except 4th, because 4th did away with slots and spells. It will also work with any game that uses a point buy/mana/reserve system.
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