Gentlegamer
Adventurer
If they have been playing for 3 years and are now 9th level, it would appear that their characters have advanced before they did. I heard this is often the case in d20.
Integrating an Experienced Player with Newbies
- Thread starter Samothdm
- Start date
Corsair said:
Perhaps I did coddle them a little bit. I was just used to the way that they fought during combats (which wasn't really the most efficient way for them to fight) so I probably got a little lazy with the tactics utilized by my bad guys.
Sure. To be fair to him, though, the Mystic Theurge PrC didn't actually exist when we started playing. He's qualifying for it now, but realizes that he didn't need the extra 2 levels in Cleric. He was also mainly playing a Cleric who just kind of "discovered" his sorcerous bloodline one day. I never thought he'd take more than 1 or at most 2 levels in Sorcerer and then he'd just focus on Cleric. From a role-playing standpoint, I guess it made more sense to him to make them more equal, plus to qualify for MT he needed 2nd level Sorcerer spells.
Yeah, definitely. This is my "second-most" veteran player in the group, and in the beginning he decided to make a personal choice to kind of just take a back-seat and let the other newbies take the lead. He took one level of Paladin for a role-playing aspect (he was approached by a member of a secret Paladin order who asked him to join and he accepted). Then, out of nowhere last time he leveled he took a 2nd level in Paladin. I'm not sure what his thinking was there, but if he's having fun and it doesn't ruin the game, who am I to stop him?
His main problem is that he only shows up to about half the sessions due to his unpredictable work schedule. That makes it difficult for him to keep up on the story aspects of the game, so when he is there I have a similar problem with him as I do with the Kensai, which is that he just shoots things with his bow but otherwise isn't too involved.
Her problem (besides that she's married to me
) is that when the game started there were two Rogues. Both were newbies and they decided to "split" their skill allocations to cover almost every situation. My wife got the disguise-bluff type who also has a strong interest in magic stuff so she's spent a ton of points on cross-class skills like Knowledge:Arcana. The other Rogue is the one who had ranks in Search, Open Lock, Disable Device, etc. Then, that player decided to multi-class as a Fighter, and then dropped out of the game after she had a baby. So, my wife is left as the "party rogue" but without any of the traditional Rogue skills you'd think of. She doesn't really have much interest in being the trapfinder and door opener. Honestly, she'd rather that her character sneak away from the party and do magical research or try to find the location of her missing mother and sister. She totally wildshapes now, but it's all on the advice of the veteran Kensai player. He's helped her work out a bunch of scenarios for combat (which currently involves wildshaping into a brown bear) so she's actually not that bad but it's because she gets help from the veteran (and has asked for help from him, unlike most of the other players).
Sure, but isn't that always the case with new players?
Hence my question - how to mingle the two worlds of the newbies with the veteran to keep everyone happy? I'm not going to just go totally crazy on them just because the experience player can keep up. Many of the rest of them would likely die and they would sure be upset about it just coming out of nowhere.
Byrons_Ghost
First Post
Do you think the player of the Kensai will have a problem if you pick on him? As a DM himself, he probably sees what's going on, so he might understand things from your point of view. IC there would be a very simple reason, and that would be reputation- if he's clearly the strongest and most skilled fighter in the party, word is going to get around. Bad guys who know that the party is after them, and are preparing for a fight, are going to get resources just to deal with the halberd master- so he gets his time fighting a souped-up monster, and the rest of the party can fight the normal encounter as they always have.
After a while, of course, this is going to become a bit hackneyed. The one thing I could think of that would a good long-term subplot is the martial arts angle; in HKAT type stuff great warriors are always getting challenged and sought out by others who might not even be all that concerned with the issues being fought over. He get could get some sort of enemy martial arts clan after him for some reason, and they could dog his steps for a few levels, constantly interfering with what the plots so that they can get their people to square off against the halberd master. Some sort of weird ninja code or something could prevent them from fighthing the others unless attacked first. Once the rest of the party figures this out, they'll probably avoid fighting the martial artists, especially if it's couched in terms of an honor duel or something like that.
This could buy you a little more time, anyhow, and it sounds like the druid and the mystic theurge are close to catching up to where they should be. I imagine the rogue is happy with her build, and ranger archers are usually going to be at least halfway competent. As for the paladin/wizard, it's a cool story idea, if not very optimized. Maybe you could adapt something like the spellsword or bladesinger for him to qualify for?
After a while, of course, this is going to become a bit hackneyed. The one thing I could think of that would a good long-term subplot is the martial arts angle; in HKAT type stuff great warriors are always getting challenged and sought out by others who might not even be all that concerned with the issues being fought over. He get could get some sort of enemy martial arts clan after him for some reason, and they could dog his steps for a few levels, constantly interfering with what the plots so that they can get their people to square off against the halberd master. Some sort of weird ninja code or something could prevent them from fighthing the others unless attacked first. Once the rest of the party figures this out, they'll probably avoid fighting the martial artists, especially if it's couched in terms of an honor duel or something like that.
This could buy you a little more time, anyhow, and it sounds like the druid and the mystic theurge are close to catching up to where they should be. I imagine the rogue is happy with her build, and ranger archers are usually going to be at least halfway competent. As for the paladin/wizard, it's a cool story idea, if not very optimized. Maybe you could adapt something like the spellsword or bladesinger for him to qualify for?
Samothdm said:
Part of it is helping the newer players learn how to get the best out of their characters, rather than just playing a weaker campaign. Instead of chastizing the Kensai too much for helping out the druid, maybe you should try encouraging everyone else to raise their standards.
Just be happy that your druid isn't turn into a Dire Lion or Polar Bear.
JoeGKushner
Adventurer
Give the arcane spell users some wands, rods and staves to kick up their abilities a bit.
Give the rogue some type of dagger of venom or backstabbing to increase his flanking abilty.
Give the rogue some type of dagger of venom or backstabbing to increase his flanking abilty.
Hey,
Would it be worth having a sit-down with the whole group and letting people discuss whether or not they'd like to optimize their character builds? Or heck, even slightly change their character concepts?
I don't know that you were coddling your players at all before the new guy joined. It sounds like their character advancement was based on what they thought would be fun, and would match the idea of the character in their head, rather than what's optimal. It's just that when somebody comes in that's optimal, they're no longer good enough. They were having lots of fun before, so it makes me grumble when people talk about how you were "going easy on them" or whatever.
(This is my biggest problem with D&D -- as much as people complain about minmaxing and the like, it works, and it makes a big difference, because the game's primarily about killing stuff. Whether or not the players are really into killing stuff the most efficient way possible isn't relevant.)
You've established that getting the new guy to "play down" to their level isn't viable, so you can help them "play up" to his. I did notice, however, that it sounds like some of your players (such as your wife) aren't honestly all that interested in thrilling tactical combat. That actually might be good news if you still want to go that way, because if you can help them make their character more viable in combat without changing how they preceive of them, they probably won't mind at all. Heck, you can probably sell it as an across-the-board boost.
Final, crazy idea -- give a little XP across the board, let people go back and change a few things to optimize, and portray it as something like "...and we learn in flashback, they've had these abilities the whole time, they've just haven't shown them yet." I could see the disguise-master rogue as also being able to break into a building, sneak through unnoticed, and assassinate an enemy, all as part of her "schtick". Retcons can be kind of fun, especially because you could intertwine it through some of the past stories that you and your group have played through.
Anyway, just throwing out some ideas.
-SweeneyTodd
Would it be worth having a sit-down with the whole group and letting people discuss whether or not they'd like to optimize their character builds? Or heck, even slightly change their character concepts?
I don't know that you were coddling your players at all before the new guy joined. It sounds like their character advancement was based on what they thought would be fun, and would match the idea of the character in their head, rather than what's optimal. It's just that when somebody comes in that's optimal, they're no longer good enough. They were having lots of fun before, so it makes me grumble when people talk about how you were "going easy on them" or whatever.
(This is my biggest problem with D&D -- as much as people complain about minmaxing and the like, it works, and it makes a big difference, because the game's primarily about killing stuff. Whether or not the players are really into killing stuff the most efficient way possible isn't relevant.)
You've established that getting the new guy to "play down" to their level isn't viable, so you can help them "play up" to his. I did notice, however, that it sounds like some of your players (such as your wife) aren't honestly all that interested in thrilling tactical combat. That actually might be good news if you still want to go that way, because if you can help them make their character more viable in combat without changing how they preceive of them, they probably won't mind at all. Heck, you can probably sell it as an across-the-board boost.
Final, crazy idea -- give a little XP across the board, let people go back and change a few things to optimize, and portray it as something like "...and we learn in flashback, they've had these abilities the whole time, they've just haven't shown them yet." I could see the disguise-master rogue as also being able to break into a building, sneak through unnoticed, and assassinate an enemy, all as part of her "schtick". Retcons can be kind of fun, especially because you could intertwine it through some of the past stories that you and your group have played through.
Anyway, just throwing out some ideas.
-SweeneyTodd
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Sweeney's on the right track.
Putting more focus on the Kensai with sub-plots and anti-kensai encounters just makes the game seem "all about the Kensai"
You need to shift the camera AWAY from the Kensai. If the PCs are not optimal for combat, have less combat. Ironically enough, the Rogue PC sounds like it would be built for an intrique campaign.
Find a way for the PCs to rebuild their character. Perhaps a house rule, if you don't use it, lose it, and reallocate. This would help the rogue. If she never uses "knowledge arcana" then dump it and let her put those points where she wants. Run a level-draining critter against them, to rewind things a bit.
Another reason you've got sub-optimal PCs is because you haven't driven them to focus on anything. Why does bullets come out of a gun? Because they're getting pushed from the other side. If you have regularly have encounters that need certain skills, and failure hurts them, eventually, they'll start taking those skills. Give magic items that unlock when you reach a certain level in a certain class, to encourage them to stop multi-piddling.
Let reality kick in. If the sub-optimal PC doesn't kick butt, let it die. Next time they'll focus on one class, until they're ready for more. A 9th level mage kicks butt. A P2/W7 apparently does not. Let life prove that point. Multi-classing is cool, when used properly. But multi-classing for multi-classing sake usually sucks.
Certainly talk to the players about it. The Kensai shouldn't have to throttle back, but if he knows about the problem you're trying to solve, he may be able to help in unexpected ways.
Janx
Putting more focus on the Kensai with sub-plots and anti-kensai encounters just makes the game seem "all about the Kensai"
You need to shift the camera AWAY from the Kensai. If the PCs are not optimal for combat, have less combat. Ironically enough, the Rogue PC sounds like it would be built for an intrique campaign.
Find a way for the PCs to rebuild their character. Perhaps a house rule, if you don't use it, lose it, and reallocate. This would help the rogue. If she never uses "knowledge arcana" then dump it and let her put those points where she wants. Run a level-draining critter against them, to rewind things a bit.
Another reason you've got sub-optimal PCs is because you haven't driven them to focus on anything. Why does bullets come out of a gun? Because they're getting pushed from the other side. If you have regularly have encounters that need certain skills, and failure hurts them, eventually, they'll start taking those skills. Give magic items that unlock when you reach a certain level in a certain class, to encourage them to stop multi-piddling.
Let reality kick in. If the sub-optimal PC doesn't kick butt, let it die. Next time they'll focus on one class, until they're ready for more. A 9th level mage kicks butt. A P2/W7 apparently does not. Let life prove that point. Multi-classing is cool, when used properly. But multi-classing for multi-classing sake usually sucks.
Certainly talk to the players about it. The Kensai shouldn't have to throttle back, but if he knows about the problem you're trying to solve, he may be able to help in unexpected ways.
Janx
VirgilCaine
First Post
Samothdm said:Her problem (besides that she's married to me
Please tell us she has Use Magic Device. Then she could be useful zapping with wands and scrolls and sneak attacking Glitterdusted or whatevered enemies with Melf's Acid Arrow or whatever.
If she can't go toe-to-toe Sneak Attacking in melee, can't scout, can't talk her way through things, can't open doors/disarm traps, AND can't do the zappy-magic thing, she should make a new character because I don't see how she can contribute.
threshel
First Post
I had a whole thing written, and my log-in timed out. Now it's gone. Grrrr...
Essentially, I wanted to say that retconning the characters should be a last resort, and that I like the choices your players have made.
I also have an adventure idea that may help.
BBEG needs (for dastardly purposes) the weapon of "a greatly skilled and honorable/famous warrior." Your kensai's halberd is top o' the list. Being from Very Far Away, the BBEG hires local help to get it, which your party will undoubtedly foil. They may suspect it was only wanted as a trophy, but have them discover the real reason fairly quickly. If they do nothing except deny the BBEG the halberd, BBEG moves to item #2 on his list, and the dastardly stuff still happens. The only thing they know about who needs it is that the thief was supposed to meet up with a caravan of BBEG's lackeys in order to escort the weapon to Very Far Away, and that the thief (and hirelings) will be paid at the completion of the journey. The only way to stop it all? The party takes the part of the thief and hirelings, and meets the caravan. The halberd is stored as cargo. After a long journey frought with danger (bandits, monsters, narrow canyon trails) and intrigue (suspicious lackeys, maybe an NPC knows more about the intent of the BBEG) they are escorted into the Stronghold (or whatever) and face down the BBEG, ending his nefarious scheme.
The entire time they're on this adventure, they're other people and have to look at new ways of acting and fighting. Should get everyone creative about their characters and actively portreying the new personas.
Rock the boat.
J
ARandomGod
First Post
For the rogue;
Gloves of Master Thievery
+X to dex, +10 to disable device, +10 to open locks.
That should solve that 'problem'.
Oh, and add a ring of blinking. Sweet.
And things like that.
Gloves of Master Thievery
+X to dex, +10 to disable device, +10 to open locks.
That should solve that 'problem'.
Oh, and add a ring of blinking. Sweet.
And things like that.
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