[Intellectual challenge] Justify a paladin being a member of a thieves' guild

[Tewligan]

Maybe the Guild doesn't know he's a paladin - he's been instructed by his order to infiltrate the guild posing as a hired guard or mercenary. That way, he has an inside scoop on any villainy the guild may be planning and can pass the info along to the proper authorities.

Or is that answer cheating?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Maybe the Guild doesn't know he's a paladin - he's been instructed by his order to infiltrate the guild posing as a hired guard or mercenary. That way, he has an inside scoop on any villainy the guild may be planning and can pass the info along to the proper authorities.

Or is that answer cheating?

I don't know if it's cheating, but I'm not sure that it's viable. A paladin is probably the worst choice for an undercover op. An undercover agent has to both lie and participate in crimes (at least minor ones) to prove himself. The paladin is allowed to do neither, even in the cause of a greater good.

 

[Grunj]

*snip* No real-world politics or religion on the boards, please. Thanks. -Darkness

 

[I'm A Banana]

Depends more on the guild than on the paladin, I think. Let's give it a quick check:

A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Shouldn't be much of a problem, there, for one who's clever. A thieves' guild that operates with order and some sort of justice would be fine.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority,

Troublesome, potentially. If the Guild has at least an un-official OK to operate, he'd be acting within legitimate authority, but that would require a king with an almost Pratchett-esque touch to his rulership. Additionally, if the guild operates in a corrupt city-state where there is no legitimate authority, the paladin is with his code, still.

act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth),

Difficult. Stealing from people kind of requires dishonorable means. Of course, it could be kind of an "above-the-board" kind of theivery? But then, in what sense would it be theivery?

Still, he could be a member in good standing of the guild without actually BEING a thief himself, I suppose. Perhaps he protects them from vigilante justice and makes sure the law doesn't come knocking at their door. He could do stuff for the thieves' guild, but I don't think he could actually steal from anyone (even someone who "could afford it" like the rich -- stealing is pretty much always dishonorable).

help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends),

Not a problem. The thieves' guild is a front for orphanages and nursing homes.

and punish those who harm or threaten innocents

Similarly not a problem. Might mean that she has to be very careful with those who are also in the guild, of course -- she can't let people skate by in the organization.

While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Potentially troublesome. Thieves aren't known to adhere to a paladin's "moral code." Still possible, but they need to be careful.

...so it seems the biggest obstructions are the act with honor and respect legitimate authority part. A paladin could probably never rob a person. Even someone who deserved it. It's pretty obviously dishonorable. They would need to give the person a "fair chance" to hold onto their money through legal means. Which pretty much negates the thievery aspect of the guild. But the paladin could have other roles that don't involve direct theivery...a sort of "I know this happens, and it has to happen for the greater good, but I can't do it myself." That could get sticky with the bit about associating with those that offend their moral code: if they know people in the guild that do this, it's pretty offensive to the moral code. At the same time, they HAVE to know, because they can't choose willful ignorance as an excuse to let evil flourish (which would hurt their Good alignment standing).

...so I'm not entirely sure they CAN. Thievery is dishonorable (even when it's Lawful Good). Any position would force the paladin to at least turn a blind eye toward dishonorable behavior, something they really can't do.

I think this would be a good Lawful Good vs. Lawful Good conflict. Both the guild and the Paladin believe that they are achieving the most good for the most people, but the paladin cannot abide the existence of the guild, and as long as the paladin is trying to thwart them, the guild can't rest easily.

Yeah, I think that's a "no." And I'm kind of surprised at that, since I'm very sympathetic to lawful revolutions and the like. The more specific code of the paladin gets in the way, here.

 

[Sejs]

Prince John and the Sheriff, while bastards, were the legitimate authority at the time, and a paladin is supposed to work within the system to change the behavior of legitimate authorities (or at least to try that first, before taking to more extreme measures).

I think therein lies the issue. They were the authority, but I definitely wouldn't say that they were the legitimate authority. They came to power by nefarious means, and used the authority they had in an abusive and selfish fashion.

So you could easily have a situation where a paladin originally tries to steer Prince John and company back onto track, whom the Prince subsequently labels a traitor and sentences to execution for his crimes of being opposed to his political whims. Said paladin then flees, ends up meeting with a certain band of Merry Men, and works to overthrow the corrupt, self-serving authority and restore a legitimate rule to the land.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So you could easily have a situation where a paladin originally tries to steer Prince John and company back onto track, whom the Prince subsequently labels a traitor and sentences to execution for his crimes of being opposed to his political whims. Said paladin then flees, ends up meeting with a certain band of Merry Men, and works to overthrow the corrupt, self-serving authority and restore a legitimate rule to the land.

I agree with this.

I don't think the paladin could turn a blind eye to robbing even corrupt nobles of all their worldly possessions, though. It's dishonorable, however good the cause.

 

[Croesus]

You can posit any details you'd like about the guild itself, about the society, and about the paladin's Church/deity. But you must stick with the RAW when it comes to actual mechanics and alignment.

This would be a much easier problem if we throw out the SRD definition of paladin and allowed noble warrior characters based on Angel, Dresden, and others. But since that's not what you asked, here goes...

Posit an organization that is a kingdom's equivalent of MI5, the CIA, or other such real world organization. The organization itself is supported by the laws of the kingdom, and 99% of its employees act in accordance with the kingdom's laws to protect the kingdom from various threats (in fact, most employees are nothing more than paperpushers).

1% of the organization, however, are undercover field agents, who most definitely do not always obey the laws (ala James Bond). Many of their bases of operation in foreign kingdoms are fronted by "thieves guilds" and other shadowy, unregulated groups. This 1% works with anyone who is useful, regardless of how disreputable they are.

Could a paladin serve such an organization? Easily - he would disapprove of the special agents, and would happily prosecute them if allowed, but ultimately he obeys the authorities and supports the kingdom.

 

[Klaus]

I agree regarding the Prince John/Nottingham bits. They're definitely NOT the legitimate authority.

I could see a Paladin, dismayed by the widespread corruption that infected the government of his city, go underground and establish an order of thieves who steal back riches earned through embezzelment, bribery, extortion and flat-out theft. If a noble responsible for tending the hospitals of the kingdom taks a stab at the gold the kingdom sets aside for the hospital of St. Cuthbert's Mercy, the paladin and his gang steal back the ammount embezzeled and hands it directly (and anonimously) to the hospital.

He is extremely cautious with whom he allows into his circle, and most of them are homeless people who the Paladin took in and gave education, food and shelter. At the same time, he uses the underground network of contacts he acquired to undermine less scrupulous gangs, perhaps guiding the more respectable members of the city watch to successful arrests, thus advancing them through the ranks of the watch in hopes of cleaning the city watch from within.

He probably dresses up like a bat.

 

[rgard]

Let's say the paladin previously served his god and country to the best of his ability. The government of the country was lawful good and the god the paladin followed was lawful good as well.

Then through treachery and brute force, a neighboring, chaotic evil horde of halflings led by a chaotic evil gnome necromancer and his undead minions wipe out the lawful good country's government and destroy all the temples to the lawful good god. They kill everyone they view as a threat, enslave others for their own cruel amusements, force others to be pipe weed farmers, sell others into slavery and seize all property and wealth. Then they institute random executions and torture of the populace and make everybody smoke pipe weed...just for sh*ts and grins.

Now thankfully the paladin was away on a pilgrimage when the take-over went down. He hears word of it and hurries back. He then finds that the only non-halfling, non-necromancer gnome, non-undead power structure in his country is the remnants of the thieve's guild that operated in the capital city.

He joins them with the mutual goal of ridding the country of the evil midgets. Many of his missions will involve being the muscle for a group of thieves who are attempting to return the country's wealth to the local populace, freeing the enslaved local populace, torching pipe weed farms and establishing secret (now illegal) temples to worship his lawful good god.

While this is illegal (not lawful) with respect to the new regime, the paladin is attempting to reinstate the old government, re-establish the old laws and worship of his god.

Does this work?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[jdrakeh]

He probably dresses up like a bat.

That is priceless! I have no idea why I failed to draw that comparison in my mind (I have about four decades worth of Batman comics in storage).