[Intellectual challenge] Justify a paladin being a member of a thieves' guild

[Primitive Screwhead]

A Paladin acting as a member of a Thieve's Guild? Sure!

Left Hand of Olidammara, an publicly acknowledged Thieves Guild that provides security experts, covert protection, and counter-thievery operations within the LawFull Good city of Carthage would gladly employ a Divine Warrior in its ranks..


-or-.. like the others have said, working with a Robin-Hoodesque Guild trying to overthrough the illegitimate powers who overthrew the legitimate rulers...


What? You thought this would be hard?

 

[bodhi]

Depends more on the guild than on the paladin, I think.

IMHO, that's really what this thread is about.

...so it seems the biggest obstructions are the act with honor and respect legitimate authority part. A paladin could probably never rob a person. Even someone who deserved it. It's pretty obviously dishonorable.

Maybe it's just because Shanghai Knights and Shanghai Noon are on TBS now, but what comes to mind are Chinese (proto-)Triads as sometimes portrayed in wuxia movies. That is, a secret society dedicated to the overthrow of the corrupt, usurping government, and restoring the rightful emperor to the throne. So, they steal from the oppressive government officials, including liberating food stores and redistributing the wealth and food to penniless, starving peasants.

They are acting with honor, as they are seeking to restore the proper order of things. And they do respect legitimate authority. It is the usurpers who do not. And in this case, it's the mandate of Heaven, and the celestial order, not just the temporal order of humanity.

I don't think the paladin could turn a blind eye to robbing even corrupt nobles of all their worldly possessions, though.

Yeah, I'd have a hard time with leaving the local baddie tied up, naked, with his house cleaned out. His vault with all the loot and food stores stolen from the hard-working farmers of his province, though? That'd be fine.

Also:

Then through treachery and brute force, a neighboring, chaotic evil horde of halflings led by a chaotic evil gnome necromancer and his undead minions wipe out the lawful good country's government and destroy all the temples to the lawful good god.

Yoink! Was this inspired by Fineous Fingers or Bored of the Rings?

 

[Mark]

Justify a paladin being a member of a thieves' guild

Amnesia.

 

[Arkhandus]

Umm, only possible way I can see it (without violating the paladin's code and all) is for the paladin to be a protector of the guild's members, not a thief himself, and for the thieves' guild to actually be the legitimate authority in the region..... The paladin wants to protect the goodly thieves that are struggling to stay alive and fight the local overlord in whatever way they can.

Perhaps the kingdom is ruled now by a despot who has no legal or bloodline claim to the throne, and is running it as an evil dictatorship, while the thieves' guild is loyal to the old royalty and perhaps run by the deposed prince, trying to undermine the illegitimate ruler and help the people who are worst-off under the oppressive new regime (stealing primarily from the dictator, and the corrupt nobles who are supporting the dictator to garner his favor, for instance).

 

[Celebrim]

How to have a Paladin commit armed robbery:

1) Find someone who is both wealthy and despicable. (ei who detects as evil and who the Paladin knows by reputation to be dishonorable)
2) Approach said person, and ask them to voluntarily make restitution. Preferably, do this in as confrontational of manner as possible. What is a high charisma for if not goading villians into making a mistake?
3) If you haven't already wheedled them into attacking you, find pretext to challenge them to a duel. This shouldn't be too hard. Turn the conversation to some matter where they are sure to say something you'll find insulting.
4) If they refuse an honorable duel, and you can't wheedle them, try to detain them in the name of your deity because of thier wicked ways.
5) After defeating them, take thier stuff as legimate plunder of war. Most legal codes based on pre-modern law will allow this. Tithe and set aside the portion for the legitimate government (either the current one or the one 'in waiting' if the current one isn't legitimate). Keep the rest to do good works with, like for example, easing the suffering of the poor.

Depending on how despicable the mark is, you can probably get away with skipping a few steps.

Alternative plan:

1) Obtain the right to assess taxes, conferred on you by some legitimate authority, including 'the rightful king in exile'.
2) Find someone discable that owes back taxes (if this is on behalf of the 'king in exile' then its probably everyone). Appropriate thier stuff as is allowed by the law. If they resist, apply appropriate penalties for resisting an officer of the law.

It's not so much a question of what you do, it's why you do it, who you do it too, and under what authority you can do it. Lawfulness I think allows for a certain amount of creative explotation of loopholes in what the law says provided you are not doing so out of self-interest or other non-lawful or non-good motive. Certainly I can see a deity excepting an argument that sometimes bending the letter of the law better serves its spirit and intention (for example, ensuring justice and protecting the innocent).

 

[Ace]

The Brothers of the Last Hope

Under the yoke of the Dark, a micro setting

When the last battle came, The dark was partially victorious. Now the world groans under the hand of the corrupt and and their sycophants. Not the ordinary corruption in every mans soul but the sheerest, foulest evil of the Tanaari, the Baatezu and The Grey Ones wrought to life in the hands of man.

Most of the time the Dark fight each other, shrieks and groans bringing their Blood War into every village and town. Still life goes on as best as can. Food is grown, Good are made and Sold and people suffer.

I am a Paladin and a thief. . I do the Brights Ones work however She decrees and as she decrees it I now work with a merry band some call the Thieves Guild.

We call it The Brothers of the Last Hope. Our lot of marginally reformed cutthroats , adventurers and last holdouts of the faith robs from evil and its cronies. We gives to those who need it.

Because we steal children eat and when it comes down to Law and Good, well taking from Chaos and Evil is a petty sin. At least that whats The High Fathers tell me and since by Her grace I am still a Paladin i guess it is so. Extrodinary times call for Extrodinary measures.

 

[AFGNCAAP]

Hmm... I'd have to say that in some certain cases, it may be possible. However, I think setting & context may be critical for something like this to work.

If the setting's like the FR, with countless deities with their own dogmas, then it's feasible for the paladin to be a member of a Lawful Good (or perhaps even NG or LN) thieves' guild, if the deity's AL & dogma match up just fine. The thieves' guild could consist of counter-thievery instead, or be actively working against a corrupt gov't (as many posts state beforehand), esp. a usurper gov't.

I'd say a Paladin/Gray Guard may work better in these instances, but since the OP asks to stick with RAW, I'm just going to use the basic/OGL stuff.

The paladin could ONLY work as a member of the thieves' guild if he was not a thief, per se. However, the actions performed by the guild would have to be acceptable according to the paladin's code (which is the tough part, IMHO). The thieves' guild would need some degree of legitimate authority to act as they do, and at best, the only way I see this working is as a countertheft guild of some sort. The LG thieves' actions would need be a legal method to use, since the paladin would probably prefer to go after the criminal thieves, arrest them, & have them tried for their crimes.

But, in situations where the rule of law isn't as easily applied (like a frontier region, for example), I could see the formation of such groups come about as an option, rather than enduring the near-fruitless exploits of dealing with an out-of-control thief problem in a frontier area with little law enforcement resources available to deal with the situation. In essence, the thieves may work as crude repo men to legally reclaim property, or private investigators to find enough evidence to allow for the arrest of criminals.

That's my two cents on this concept.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Deep cover.

The head of the Thieves' Guild is the most powerful criminal in the city--but his identity is shrouded in mystery and proof vs. divinations.

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

I think Robin Hood and his merry men too. First thought that came to my head before I even read one post. Especially In the Kevin Cosnter movie. Wasnt he supposed to be back from the Crusades? Been Years since i saw it, dont know the real legend, but yeah he seemed like a paladin to me in a "thieves Guild"

 

[GSHamster]

If you extend it a bit, a Thieves' Guild is often composed of thieves, beggars, and prostitutes. All the undesirables of society. You could easily see a city where all the rich folk live in protected enclaves, while the Thieves' Guild holds sway in the hovels and tenements outside that.

Finally, thieves, beggars and prostitutes are the traditional prey of vampires. A paladin could be seeking to protect the thieves from the vampires. Sure, she probably disapproves of the methods people resort to survive, and she does her best to try and keep them on the narrow path. But her main fight is with the vampires, and she stands between the vampires and the poor, flawed, perhaps evil, but ultimately redeemable humans.

This works best if it's not just thieves and bandits, but extends to more morally grey areas like begging, smuggling, and prostitution.