Interaction of True Resurrection and Reincarnation

[Scharlata]

[...] What happens when somebody who's used reincarnate to extend his lifespan gets True Ressurected? [...]

Tricky question

I wasn't inclined to one or another solution - because I'll be content to live as halfling or human, either way - until you came up with that question. Now, I think that a true resurrection - cast with good intentions - shouldn't kill someone died within his "fifth" body (due to multiple reincarnations).

I think the answer to the original question is not found in the rules; it's rather a personal philosophical inclination.

"Body count" - pardon the pun - is until this post: 1/2ling 7 (including me) to Human 2.

BTW @DreamChaser:
The high-priest/king was a ghost that took over the body of a comrade of the dead halfling MT to cast true resurrection as a favor to the party for doing something that led to his ultimate demise and eternal peace. The resurrector just has had prepared THAT spell over hundreds of year ago not being able to "clear his mind" and prepare spells anew. That's (as I understood) the reason why.

Kind regards

 

[Sithobi1]

You could just let the resurrected player choose, and say that is the image they had of themselves-kind of like the Matrix

 

[blargney the second]

I like the "human" option. It puts the true back in True Rez.

I can also see the possibility of fun stories that it opens for the DM: party kills a demon, someone True Rez's it, and it comes back as the being it was before it became a creature of evil.

Sort of like a divine reset button.
-blarg

 

[Henrix]

I'd say he'd be resurrected as a halfling. When he died he was a halfling and that's what he'd come back as.

He wasn't in any way a human polymorphed or in any other way changed into a halfling. True Seeing would not have seen anything but a halfling. He was a halfling.

It takes another spell, Wish, Miracle, Reincarnate, to change him into something else than a halfling.

 

[Tatsukun]

I'm also going with the halfling option. Because I am wondering what happens when True Res is cast on a PC that believes in past lives (reincarnation).

If you have a druid who is always talking about "our many lives, many lessons..." what happens? Why do we stop going back to just the human? What if his life previous to human was a five-day-long life as a bird (who fell out of the nest or something)? What if it was a worm that lived to a ripe old age in an apple? (Pardon the pun)

I guess I am having trouble with defining "true form" as "the one you were when we started following your exploits by playing DnD".

-Tatsu

 

[the Jester]

Put me in the halfling camp.

 

[reanjr]

I vote for whichever the priest wishes. If the priest does not care, but does know that the person was originally human, then 50/50. If the priest does not know anything about that whole first life thing, I'd go for halfling.

This is something I would change campaign by campaign, though if it came up. Differing cosmologies or divine-mortal relations might dicate a different answer.

[edit] to be more specific, I would have it depend on whether reincarnation was the natural order of things (in which case I would vote halfling), or something that only occurs because a spell creates a new body for a soul (in which case go with my priest determines the race answer).

 

[CapnZapp]

First of all: many posters have replied with their preferences.

The original question asks us what the rules say. Under no circumstances does this process involve personal opinion - either the rules state a definite answer, or its unclear. Only then could the follow-up question of what we posters think is best become relevant.

Ok, that said, most points have already been brought up, so I'm only going to summarize:
* the character needs to be dead for True Ressurection to work at all. That is, the character's soul must be free (from the "prison of the flesh").
* Reincarnate and True Ressurection are two spells that are able to create new bodies. In all cases the old body loses its connection to the soul, and therefore cannot be brought back to life (otherwise it would be easy to create a perfect twin of yourself!). Essentially, the old body is just a lump of flesh with a superficial similarity to a certain person.
* Once you're reincarnated, every time you die and are raised, you go back to your new body. Not even True Ressurrection can change this. Reasons:
- By the rules, the old body has no connection to your soul any longer.
- By the rules, the two specific spells that do have this power are Wish and Miracle.
- By metarules: if True Ressurrection could reverse reincarnation, this would make Reincarnation into a much lesser spell - then it would not be so bad to reincarnate somebody because you're only a TR scroll away from negating the dreaded incarnation roll.

Note that Reincarnation did not have to state Wish would work, i.e. I view that statement more as a clarification than an actual rules statement. Because Wish can already create new bodies and bring them back to life (using two Wishes)! There's nothing stopping you from creating a new and improved body for you to return to life into. This works like a permanent (instantaneous actually) "true shapechange".

So, in this case the rules are clear and unambigous.

Hope that helps,
Zapp

 

[Thanee]

First of all: many posters have replied with their preferences.

The original question asks us what the rules say. Under no circumstances does this process involve personal opinion - either the rules state a definite answer, or its unclear. Only then could the follow-up question of what we posters think is best become relevant.

So, does it?

I'd like to know what your wise rule/opinion/answer may be.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

By the rules, the old body has no connection to your soul any longer.

Where does it say that?

The soul is now in a new body, but why should there be no connection left to the old one?

You still recall your old form. You even keep some of your old racial abilities after reincarnation, so there certainly must be some sort of connection left, since you still are partially of your old race. An elf reincarnated as a human is exactly that, an elf reincarnated as a human, not a human.

By the rules, the two specific spells that do have this power are Wish and Miracle.

As I see it, Wish and Miracle can restore the creature to the original body without killing it first.

Also True Resurrection is more powerful than Wish and Miracle combined, when it comes to restoring the dead to life.

And Reincarnation is a lesser spell compared to True Resurrection, anyways (by far even).

The original body is still the original body, no amount of Reincarnation can change this.

However, the rules do not state, whether you can resurrect someone with his or her original body or only with the last occupied body. So only opinions can be gathered here, anyways.

So, in this case the rules are clear and unambigous.

That's just an opinion like any other.

The rules don't say anything at all about what happens, if you kill someone who has been reincarnated and then restore that someone to life with True Resurrection.

So, the correct answer by the rules is... its unclear (by your own saying), but that is not what has been asked for (see above). He asked for opinions (obviously knowing already, that there is no clear and unambiguous rules answer).

My personal opinion is, that True Resurrection reverts the process, since a feeble spell like Reincarnate cannot influence the power of a 9th level spell like that.

Bye
Thanee