Interesting article about magic in RPGs

The main problem with shaping rpg magic alike folklore magic is that it plays a completely different role. In old tales, magic is usually either background or a source of problems - and when it really helps the hero, it is still mostly out of his control. In rpg, if you give magic to a PC, it becomes a tool and problem-solving method. And a tool-like magic is, by definition, controllable and predictable - otherwise nobody will use it in play. It's a mirror reflection of Sanderson's First Law.

It does not mean that it's impossible to have "magical magic" in RPG. Some of the ideas the article's author mentions work well. PC magic cannot be unpredictable and needs to have resonable limits, but it may come with risk or, even better, moral choices. It may work without daily limits or be self-limiting in a way that makes more in-game sense. It may be an inherent part of the world and come naturally from high level of skills instead of being added on top of everything else.

I agree with majority of the article. It's only the mysterious-vs-scientific divide that I oppose. Magic in RPG needs to be scientific, "you may repeatably apply your knowledge for predictable results" scientific. But being scientific also means deep dependence on world's natural laws. And the natural laws of a fantasy world may be fun and interesting to explore in themselves.

It's not to make magic non scientific. It's to make fantasy science magical.
 

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The reason magic in old tales and myths seems 'mysterious' is that our viewpoint character is never the person with magic. They may be affected by magic or use a magical device (usually following a set of instructions), or pal around with magical people, but I cannot think of one single myth or tale where our hero is a non-apprentice actually capable of doing magic.

You tell someone about the intricacies of your job and it'll seem pretty mysterious to them, but to you, the insider, you're following a set of step-by-step procedures or guidelines that get you from point a to point b. The more complex your job, the more mysterious.

'Real' magic in myths is probably no more 'mysterious' than being a medical doctor. You have a huge body of lore that no one person understands the whole of, based on incomplete information. Things work like they should 95% of the time: drug a has effect b, but sometimes stuff just happens because of variables beyond your control. ("Well, I have no idea why this guy isn't dead, but he isn't").

This has an air of truth to it. Many stories and legends are about a non-magic hero fighting a magical enemy. Almost as if "magic" is the enemy.

Given the witchhunts that occurred, it may be a cultural attribute that magic was the bad guy in fiction.

Are there any legends/myths (stuff from before the witchhunts) where the protagonist used magic? Stuff like the story of how Odin got runes?
 

Indeed....

What is the first myth that actually has as a protoganist a magic user?

Hell, even in NOVELS, it is relatively recently that th eprotoganist was allowed to be the magic user. Really, for most novels, at best, the MU was a mentor or guide and usually the BBEG.
 

The Irish Hero/God Lugh was a wizard (in addition to being a warrior, poet, smith, musician, and scholor).

The Paladin Malagigi (from the legends of Charlamagne) was a wizard who was also a knight.

The actual medieval stories about Merlin are very well developed, and he goes through his own hero's journey, from his youthful prophesies, to his service to the King, to his eventual imprisonment by his lover.

Of course, there is also Dr. Faustus, though he's an anti-hero.

As for an entire myth/legend where the protagonist is a magic user, there is Apollonius of Tyana, a Pythagorean philosopher who was ascribed tremendous magical powers and whose legends were current in antiquity. Of course, Apollonius was supposed to be Theurgist, meaning he would perform the same kind of miracles as a wizard but did so through invoking the gods.
 
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The main problem with shaping rpg magic alike folklore magic is that it plays a completely different role. In old tales, magic is usually either background or a source of problems - and when it really helps the hero, it is still mostly out of his control. In rpg, if you give magic to a PC, it becomes a tool and problem-solving method. And a tool-like magic is, by definition, controllable and predictable - otherwise nobody will use it in play. It's a mirror reflection of Sanderson's First Law.

It does not mean that it's impossible to have "magical magic" in RPG. Some of the ideas the article's author mentions work well. PC magic cannot be unpredictable and needs to have resonable limits, but it may come with risk or, even better, moral choices. It may work without daily limits or be self-limiting in a way that makes more in-game sense. It may be an inherent part of the world and come naturally from high level of skills instead of being added on top of everything else.

I agree with majority of the article. It's only the mysterious-vs-scientific divide that I oppose. Magic in RPG needs to be scientific, "you may repeatably apply your knowledge for predictable results" scientific. But being scientific also means deep dependence on world's natural laws. And the natural laws of a fantasy world may be fun and interesting to explore in themselves.

It's not to make magic non scientific. It's to make fantasy science magical.


I think you're onto something really good here, and basically agree with many of your points.

One thing I perhaps have a different view upon though is this:


PC magic cannot be unpredictable

Magic (PC or otherwise) can easily be unpredictable, it just can't be always unpredictable, if it is to be employed as a modern problem-solving tool. (Of course that is not all it can be used for even by PCs.) Part of the way it would be dangerous, in comparison to science, is if it occasionally either backfires, or presents itself in a way the user or no-one else ever really predicted.

For instance when technology fails, it is not science that fails, but the fact that either the technology is functioning incorrectly, or some variable in the technology or even the underlying science is unknown or not properly understood. But with magic you have built in aspects of "not understood" and "unknown." Because as you mentioned and implied magic is rarely under the real control of the user (not to mention the spectators or observers) in myths, or is not under the control of the user in the way the user suspects this to be so. Therefore there are almost always consequences of using magic that are unanticipated.

For with science the point is not only to control the forces that manipulate states of matter (regardless of whether such matter is organic or inorganic) and energy, but to fundamentally understand those processes (regardless of whether real understanding has been achieved, or is even possible given the limitations of the human senses and the human mind). The point being that not only is control desired, but understanding is.

With magic however it is a matter of control, far more-so than understanding. Yes, a very few select individuals may understand certain aspects of how particular magical effects function, but it is not the summa esse of the magical experience to understand, but to control (as much as is possible, assuming this is possible, at any rate) the magical forces.

Modern man has an extremely difficult time understanding this distinction and so commonly blurs the lines between control and understanding, assuming that control naturally and fundamentally implies understanding. He thinks and assumes (wrongly so) that one cannot have control without understanding, and that the more understanding he has the more naturally he will be able to control a thing. This is practically ingrained in modern man so deeply that he simply subconsciously assumes it is a basic and unchallenged condition of existence. He automatically demands it be true, and so to him it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and weltanschauung. This is even more obvious and pronounced among the Geek and Nerd sub-populations, such as those whose lives are filled with the background ambience of science and technology and whose livelihoods depend ever increasingly upon technology and "understanding their world." (This is not to be confused, but very often is, with "Understanding the World.") They simply, de facto, conclude that any system of real or desired control would be "scientific" by nature, or would want to be if it were not. How could it be any other way to them?

However throughout the course of human history it has been an extremely small percentage of the population who has sought real understanding of fundamental forces and phenomena (in comparison say to control of such forces, for instance compare the numbers of men like Archimedes or Da Vinci to the entire human population). The truth is that the vast majority of human beings still prefer and are satisfied with the practice of control over the concept of understanding, or at least are very much satisfied with that small level of control necessary to command and manipulate that level of technology and those forces in the world with which they daily interact. How many people watch television in comparison to how many people understand how it operates? How many people drive automobiles compared to how many are able to take an engine apart, or even understand the basic principles of the internal combustion engine? Technology seems far more scientific to us than magical (and so it should because technology is not magical, but it's effects are seemingly magical in some respects sometimes) because our entire background and worldview is based upon the dissemination of a basic level of realization involving the "understanding of basic principles." That is to say, generally speaking, modern and advanced societies imprint upon their populations the idea that it is important not only for their own personal welfare, but for the good of their society, to have a fundamental grasp of the understanding of matter and force and science and technology.

But for the vast majority of people who have ever lived, and who still live (I'd bet dollars to doughnuts), it is satisfactory and sufficient to have a certain level of practical and pragmatic control over whatever it is necessary or desired that one control, and real understanding (at least as far as human understanding is possible in most things) is under the purview of a very small segment of the population. It is only a modern conceit fostered by an assumption that everyone wants to be, or should be, or would choose to be if given the chance "scientific" in their worldview in how things operate, how much one understands about how things operate (which of course say nothing about why they operate as they do), and what that implies about controlling operations and functions. This idea is so immediately and reflexively (I'd even say culturally and sub-consciously) ingrained that not many in modern societies even stop to critically reflect upon the possibility that it may not be anything more than a blindly prejudiced assumption of values, rather than an accurate reflection of human reality. (I am not passing moral judgment on either position or condition in either direction, I am merely pointing out the underlying set of assumptions. Just as non-technological societies and peoples and even individuals have sets of underlying values and assumptions, so do scientific and technological societies and peoples and individuals.)

And if all, or at least important aspects of the above are true, then magic can operate fundamentally differently than science, and produce vastly different effects, while still maintaining the corollary illusion that what is being practiced is understanding, but what is actually being practiced is an unsure and unsteady (that is dangerous and in some ways very unpredictable) method of control.


And I also agree with Sanderson's First Law to the extent that the idea of understanding implies actual control of magic as a problem-solving-methodology. However as has been practiced and repeatedly proven throughout human history you can still control a thing and not understand it, though some things cannot be controlled pragmatically unless there is at least some degree (no matter how small or how mistaken in many respects) of understanding of the thing. But one can understand degrees of a thing, and everyone does, for no-one understands everything about anything, so that one knows enough to satisfactorily control, at least often enough to be effective, without really comprehending the hows, the whats, and the whys of a thing. [Indeed science itself is often at a total loss about the why(s) of a thing. Or at least, as the old saw goes in science, "fundamentally confused as to the why of this..."]

I would also state that as regards to Sanderson, a rule does not imply an understanding. A rule can imply an understanding just as it can a limitation, but it can also merely imply a set of observations by which one believes a thing operates because it has been observed to do so on numerous previous occasions. But with magic, with the idea of magic, as with the idea of miracles, rules need not be consistently functional limitations at all, but rather just a state of habitual conditionals, habits and conditions that are always open to modification when brought into contact with the right (or wrong) set of variables or states of being. That is to say a "rule is a rule until it is not," and unlike with science, you don't have to apply overwhelming energy principles and exotic and quantumized matter sates in order to shatter previous limitations, all you have to do is cause the "inherent potentiality" to express in previously unknown or unpredicted ways. In chemistry (which is science) you cannot transmute lead into gold, you would rather have to impose tremendous external energy states and fundamentally alter physical matter expressions. In alchemy (which is magic) the potential for lead to transmute into gold is already present within the characteristic nature of the matter, all that is required is that the proper and secret method of control be exercised, and the effect will be achieved. "Presto-chango." With magic matter and energy are not bound or unbound by their basic limitations, but by "their fundamental character," and with magic the idea is that most everything has a secret and ultimately meaningful fundamental character (in this respect magic is very close to a religious ideal, and matter and energy are more miraculous than mundane - and the mundane can be relatively easily predicted - but the miraculous always retains an unpredictable and covert aspect of "secret and mysterious expression.")

That is a difference in worldview most modern men have a whole lot of trouble intuitively "understanding."

Anywho, I gotta go. I've enjoyed the dialogues and ideas.
 

Jack just wrote something long. A bit longer than my brain wants to read.

I think his core point was "control does not mean full understanding" and magic doesn't have to be 100% predictable. There's some nuances he's talking about.


I think the core point the of the original statement was that PCs won't use magic if it isn't reliable. Except for crazy players.

I will accept that as a 1st level fighter, when I swing my sword, I have a 50% chance of doing damage, or there is no effect.

I would accept as a 1st level wizard when I cast my flamey spell, I have a 50% chance of doing damage, or there is no effect.

I would not play a wizard if the % was worse than the fighter's for similar damage, or if the result was totally random on whether I hit or missed, and what happened each time I cast a spell.

Totally random results means that casting a spell isn't likely to solve the problem.

Why cast the flamey spell at my enemy, if most of the time, he doesn't get hurt, and worse, something wierd will happen or harmful to me?

Why cast the unlock spell, when there's a good chance, it won't unlock, and worse, something wierd will happen?

This was the problem with the Wild Mage in 2e FR. It was too random for most players to be useful (and that wasn't that random).

Thus, players need control over magic, or the magic isn't a useful tool (which is part of what Jack was pointing out).

Hopefully, that's less words than Jack. :)
 

One thing I'd like to add is that the reliability of a tool needs to be proportional to how often one is expected to use it (the more one is expected to use a tool, the more reliable it should be). A tool's reliability should also be proportional to how catastrophic the consequence would be if the tool failed (if you want to use something that blows up in your face if it failed, you better be damn sure it doesn't fail often). A corollary of that second point is that reliability is less important if the consequence of failure is minimal and you can try to use the tool again quickly.

If your home computer has a 5% chance of blowing up everytime you turn it on and it will take out your house if it blows up, you would probably throw away your computer and get a new one. Similarly, if simply lighting a candle with magic is unreliable to that degree, people would quickly abandon magic for flint and steel.

The problem I see with highly unreliable or unpredictable magic with RPG systems is that if a players wants to play a magic user, he wants to cast spells, not play a physically useless dude in a funny hat. And that means casting spells very often.
 

Well, there _IS_ the Ars Magica method which regularly gets lauded for having a very "magical" feel.

Of course, it gets that at the cost of "non-mages are NOT main characters"
 

Hopefully, that's less words than Jack.

Janx, I'm either gonna have to run my Word count tool or toss some rune stones to be absolutely sure, to know for sure, but either way I'm betting you're right.


One thing I'd like to add is that the reliability of a tool needs to be proportional to how often one is expected to use it (the more one is expected to use a tool, the more reliable it should be). A tool's reliability should also be proportional to how catastrophic the consequence would be if the tool failed (if you want to use something that blows up in your face if it failed, you better be damn sure it doesn't fail often). A corollary of that second point is that reliability is less important if the consequence of failure is minimal and you can try to use the tool again quickly.

If your home computer has a 5% chance of blowing up everytime you turn it on and it will take out your house if it blows up, you would probably throw away your computer and get a new one. Similarly, if simply lighting a candle with magic is unreliable to that degree, people would quickly abandon magic for flint and steel.

The problem I see with highly unreliable or unpredictable magic with RPG systems is that if a players wants to play a magic user, he wants to cast spells, not play a physically useless dude in a funny hat. And that means casting spells very often.

All very excellent points. Especially as being analogous to modern science and technology, but I still don't think I'm quite getting my point across. So let me rephrase, and re-stress.

In your example about a computer that situation might very well be true of a computer that uses radioactive material as an internal power source.

But again this is an example predicated on the idea that magic must by nature be analogous to science in both functions and effects, and therefore naturally dangerous in the way we moderns think of dangerous (failures being explosive or discharging strong electrical shocks, and so forth and so on). In other words your example automatically reduces the functions and effects of magic into terms that are analogous to science and technology as if science and technology is the base measure of how to best perceive reality (and forms of power).

And this is exactly what I am saying magic is not, and is not menat to be. It is not science and technology and it is not initially and necessarily predicated upon science and technology, it stands alone as a separate entity and manner of perceiving reality and operating within reality. (This is an entirely fictional association of course, because from our point of view magic does not really exist, but let's assume it does for sake of investigative analysis.)

In other words you don't take magic and then transform it into scientific corollaries because it isn't scientific in the way we moderns think of science, but for some reason naturally (or so we think) needs to be. And that is what moderns can't seem to grasp because their first reaction is to narrow magic down to scientific and technological parameters. If your crystal ball fails badly it explodes. This is a modern conceit, not at all like ancient or even Medieval myths (or peoples or their way of looking at existence). The idea of things catastrophically failing in a physical and obvious way is the modern conceit. That's exactly what I mean. It's so reflexive that it is the first and natural modern impulse when seeking analogous metaphors for what failure might imply.

Let's however look at a mythological and magical idea of "failure to exercise positive and fundamental control over the forces of magic."

You look into your crystal ball intending to use it to spy upon your enemy (your desired form of control) and unknown to you the party on the other side begins to subtly influence your mind and perceptions, perhaps without you ever coming to understand this is what is/did happen. (This is exactly what happened with Saruman and others when gazing into the Palantir.) In time your mind becomes corrupted and the influence is entirely mental and then later psychological, but it nevertheless remains extremely dangerous. Because after becoming embedded within your psyche (your soul) it slowly then becomes apparent in the creeping corruption of your behavior. Nothing has blown up, nothing has obviously or physically failed (as would be apparent with modern technology, although there is a sort of internet-corruption analogy at work here as regards modern technology), the failure is in the mind and soul of the user. The user failed to exercise disciplined control over the magic (another way of putting this is he failed to remain in control of himself) and over time (an important distinction between magic and science, with modern science we usually think of catastrophic and spectacular failures which are immediate, no matter how long they really take to build, with magic and myth failure is usually a very slow process of almost undetectable incremental corruption and decay) either the secret user or corrupter or the magic itself exceeded that control or imposed an order of external control.

Or you could look into a crystal ball and unknown to you you suddenly start perceiving reality very differently. Perhaps times runs differently, people are unrecognizable, languages are no longer understandable or understandable in a very different way. You see visions, suffer nightmares, the light tortures, or the darkness horrifies. There are many shades and types of real danger far beyond things exploding and catastrophically failing, and magic is full of them. But they are far more often than not psychologically based, dangers to the mind and soul, and most modern societies, most modern peoples, and most modern games don't really either understand or grasp that because they are looking to what they are naturally familiar and comfortable with, immediate effects, gratifications, and explosions. Obvious and common physical failures. States of mind, being, and soul, which have always been the providence of real magic, as well as miracles, are considered tertiary and ultimately unimportant effects precisely because they lay beyond the normative realms of science and technology. Therefore they are rarely even considered truly "dangerous and unpredictable." They rely upon perception of reliant rather than reality itself.

But I'm saying that line of demarcation, that frontier of reality (or hyper-reality if you will) is a canard and a conceit of modern modes of thinking when considering things like magic and the functions of magic and the effects of magic. Gunpowder magic is not really magic, it is proto-science termed magic because no real or good scientific explanation has yet to be formulated. But real magic does not fail in the field, it fails in the heart, it coils like a viper in the soul, it corrupts the mind, and twists behavior and conduct. The real danger with magic, good and bad, is not predicated upon the spectacular explosion, but upon the slow and convoluted twist of human Fate and personal Wyrd.

(You can see how modern man would naturally eschew this type of magic, because it takes patience to present power, not power to present potency. Men today want immediate and obvious and unmistakable effects. They often do not want to be bothered by what is obscure and invisible. That was for his ignorant ancestors, who did not know as much as he, and therefore lack his natural enlightenment about how things really are.)

Science therefore is like a comfortable port of shelter from the savage seas. It implies control, and it is a haven from danger. Even if you don't like what is going to happen, you know what is going to happen. It's predictable. And its forms of danger are blatantly obvious. Magic though is more like a form of psychosis, and it is filled with dangerous visions and trances, exhausting experiences, disturbing prophecies, and the kind of unpredictability that either hardens the mind and tempers the soul, or breaks the mind and hammers and deforms the soul.

The first impulse should not be to reduce everything regarding magic to an easily acceptable and understood technological or scientific analogy, though that is the common and reflexive way of thinking on these things for modern people (we are subconsciously conditioned to think and respond in this way by our culture and manners of interacting with the world I suspect). Rather the first impulse should be intentionally away form science and technology and into that realm in which true danger lies in the threats to soul, mind, and spirit, and by imperiling these aspects of human life, then magic bleeds outwards towards the dangerous, the wondrous, and the unpredictable in the world at large.

But first and foremost, one must unlearn what one has learned.
Otherwise magic and miracles remain forever nothing more than artificially contrived facades and disguises of their true nature. Mere science (and I have great respect for science, being a scientist myself) wrapped in a cloth of fools-gold.


However in that sense and given that prelude I do agree with you, if magic is to be reduced to nothing more than an imaginary metaphor for physical science, then unpredictability and danger is highly undesirable. (If it is to be something more than just science by another name however then it is desirable that it be many things directly in opposition to modern science.)

And I also thought you brought up some very valid and interesting and important points about proportional reliability.
 

There are plenty of ways for things to fail with modern technology that doesn't imply sudden destruction. I use the example of a computer blowing up because I thought it was a funny way to carry my point across. Prolong exposure to radiation, dangerous chemicals, pathogens, carcinogens etc. can all be analogous to your examples of corruptive effect of magic. A computer that slowly gives you cancer over 10 years would still be chucked.

If doing something via method A is so unreliable and dangerous that its cost-benefit ratio is lower than doing the same thing via method B, then method A would be abandoned in favour of method B. If magic is so dangerous that it almost always gives you magic cancer, people would either a) develop some way of preventing that or b) abandon magic in favour of doing things mundanely. This may not happen for many years, but over time, a society would slowly tend towards abandoning unreliable and dangerous methods in favour of safer and more reliable ones.

That doesn't mean that any particular individual wouldn't be stupid enough to use the dangerous method (afterall, we have tons of smokers in our society). They would just think that the bad things won't happen to them. But this type of situation argues for a setting where magic is rare and frowned upon (if not persecuted) by society. Any type of setting where magic is commonly accepted and looked upon as a useful solution by society at large is incompatible with a magic system that fails often and gives people magic cancer.
 

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