Interesting Decisions vs Wish Fulfillment (from Pulsipher)

pemerton

Legend
It's important not to get hung up on the fictional events rather than how risky it actually feels at the table. One of the greatest insights of GNS theory IMO is that a given transcript of fictional events could have been produced by any creative agenda. The fact that your players contrived a plan to have guards fight the cultists doesn't tell me how much tension was involved in that choice and whether they're really scrapping for advantage or it was more of a lighter, just for fun/showing off thing.
Absolutely this.

Likewise with the "any means necessary" style of play - if ticking off orc henchmen is no different from ticking off arrows in a quiver than Robilar's conquest of the ToH, while perhaps distasteful, is nothing very special in comparison to a 4e wizard solving a problem with rituals while the player dutifuly marks off the components used.

In the Action Movie paradigm, the target has a security system. The players are expected to fight/sneak/talk their way to the station where the system can be deactivated, or just deal with the consequences of the system being on.

In the Heist Movie paradigm, one player says "instead, let's just go steal an electromagnetic pulse bomb from a nearby research lab and knock the entire grid out for several seconds".
This is all about the ingame fiction. It doesn't tell me anything about playstyle.

For instance, if the game was HeroQuest revised, or Burning Wheel, then both hacking through the security system, and stealing a bomb to knock out the grid, might be resolved with a single check. (If framed by the GM as simple contests.)

In a 4e skill challenge, it is taken for granted (by me as a player/GM, but also I think in the rulebooks) that the players will try to leverage and twist the fiction so that they can bring their PCs' best skills to bear. In my Torog example, for instance (linked above), you see the sorcerer using his magical fire spell to melt the ice, thereby leveraging Arcana skill. (Whereas a natural fire would leverage the PC's noticeably weaker Nature skill.) Likewise the ranger flies on his carpet (leveraging an excellent Acrobatics skill) rather than running across-country (the PC's Athletics is mediocre), and vice versa for the fighter.

Looked at through this lens, what I see in your example is that Team A have stronger stealth/bluff, while Team B have stronger break & enter/demolitions - so each team is playing to its strengths.

The only approach to RPGing that doesn't permit this sort of play - that is, players leveraging the fiction to deploy their best resources - is railroading/Adventure Path play. (I disagreed upthread with [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] that this was what Pulsipher is getting at with ID vs WF, but it might be apposite for trying to make sense of this CaW/CaS thing.)

Gary is running Tomb of Horrors. One of the players, Robilar, deals with every trap in the whole dungeon (more or less) by throwing orc henchman at them.

Robilar thinks this is smart play, and the DM appears to agree because he's allowing it.

Another player (who I have to make up) thinks this is boring play, with none of the excitement he was expecting from a creepy tomb.

Are these not two very different play styles? Styles that are in tension?
There are multiple things going on here.

One is about resolution techniques. In Robilar's case, the GM is "saying yes". The GM could, presumably, turn this into an exciting game of psycho-social tension among the cadres of orcs. (For instance, Gygax's DMG has rules for loyalty checks that would be relevant in these circumstances.) But for whatever reason has chosen not to.

A game could be resolved in just the same way without the orcs - for instance, replace the orcs with a standard procedure involving 10' poles, a flying thief on a rope with lots of Wish spells for resurrection, etc.

Another is about the fictional stakes of the game. The player who finds the whole thing boring was looking for a game about dramatic tomb-looting (Indiana Jones style? or something pulpy like that.) And has instead received a game of resource management in which it could just as easily be about supplying drinks to customers in an inn as feeding orcs to traps in the ToH.

There are other ways in which the differences in desires could be described, too.

But I'm baffled as to why anyone would think that "combat as war" and "combat as sport" are useful ways of drawing any of these contrasts.

your point about the Dm allowing things is why I have a problem with the dichotomy you are presenting. If it's down to what the DM allows, then there really isn't any difference, they're both sports. Neither is about the player choosing option A or B, it's about what the DM will enable. And since it's basically all down to that, what's the point in painting them differently?

At the end of the day, it's all contrived scenarios. It's artifice. Hopefully what the Dm wants to see and what the player's want to attempt line up and everyone goes home happy with a fun session.
I definitely think this is part of it. What sort of colour/flavour do we want? (Orc slaves? Tombs? Heist? Blowing things up?)

Who frames (and reframes) scenes - GM or players?

What sort of resolution system do we want (resource management? high gamble, like SoD, or low gamble, like 4e? etc)

How important is fictional positioning to resolution?

These are all interesting aspects of RPG design and play, but I don't see any particular connection to war or to sport. As Hussar says, the whole game is artifice, and we're talking about the ways in which it is to be undertaken.
 

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Does this example work:

In the Action Movie paradigm, the target has a security system. The players are expected to fight/sneak/talk their way to the station where the system can be deactivated, or just deal with the consequences of the system being on.

In the Heist Movie paradigm, one player says "instead, let's just go steal an electromagnetic pulse bomb from a nearby research lab and knock the entire grid out for several seconds".

Criticisms? Tweaks?

Hmm... On thinking about it, all the examples you have given (burn down the forest, melt the dungeon, EMP the city block) make the PCs into Joker (as in The Dark Knight) style villains. Even Hans Gruber didn't try EMPing a city block when he wanted the generator turned off. Instead he got a step ahead of the opposition by reading their playbook and made the moves that would convince them to turn the generator off for him. When you are playing someone who is a level more callous than Hans Gruber you're certainly ... something.
 

Hmm... On thinking about it, all the examples you have given (burn down the forest, melt the dungeon, EMP the city block) make the PCs into Joker (as in The Dark Knight) style villains. Even Hans Gruber didn't try EMPing a city block when he wanted the generator turned off. Instead he got a step ahead of the opposition by reading their playbook and made the moves that would convince them to turn the generator off for him. When you are playing someone who is a level more callous than Hans Gruber you're certainly ... something.

So you haven't seen the remake of Ocean's 11 then.

Half of the people I've been disagreeing with in this thread seem to be focused on completely different aspects of the issue(s) than what I consider the point.
 


You mean the scene where they kill everyone with a pacemaker in a quarter of the city, and anyone on life support in the same radius? All for their little con? There's a reason Cracked leads with that movie. And one I was cheering for the police.

I just can't figure out how to respond appropriately to the attitude of your posts without inviting suspension. I'll settle for "I don't think you are in any way discussing the same topic I've been discussing" and move along.
 

I just can't figure out how to respond appropriately to the attitude of your posts without inviting suspension. I'll settle for "I don't think you are in any way discussing the same topic I've been discussing" and move along.

You stated "So you haven't seen the remake of Ocean's 11 then." I have. If it were a book I would consider it a wallbanger because of The Pinch. When they cut life support in hospitals. When they took out pacemakers. For that matter, turning the city dark turned out the traffic lights (and some, but not all of the cars - also woe betide anyone flying low) The Oceans 11 crew are mass murderers.

I'm reminded of Doctor Who. "Good men don't need rules. Today is not the day to find out why I have so many." Your description of Combat As War consistently involves turning your back on all moral rules and not caring who gets slaughtered as a consequence. Whether it's burning the forest down, collapsing the dungeon with everyone inside, or dropping an EMP into a civilian area. This might not be what you want to talk about - but it would appear to be a consistent pattern with your examples.

 

This might not be what you want to talk about - but it would appear to be a consistent pattern with your examples.

What is the fallacy for focusing on nitpicking examples instead of addressing the argument? I'm describing the different styles of gameplay, and you seem determined to criticize what you think (hint: it isn't) is my playstyle.

P.S. Did you stop watching Star Wars because of the civilian contractors killed when the Death Star blew up?
 

Daztur

Adventurer
Neonchameleon said:
A civil discussion can only start when you accept that even if it wasn't what was intended, the Combat as Sport/Combat as War dichotomy is inherently uncivil.

The reason I chose CaS in the first place was:
-The idea that the decisions made DURING combat mostly determine the outcome which is rather like a sporting match (each game starts fresh) rather than warfare in which maneuver and logistics before the combat starts often determine the outcome with the actual fighting being a fait accompli.
-A desire to play out combat according to rules known as all parties rather than trying to cheat and subvert the rules to get an advantage.
-The focus on combat being a fun activity in and of itself rather than the 10% terror and 90% boredom makeup that you often get in warfare (i.e. 30 minutes of fun packed into four hours or however that quote went). Combat as more of an end into itself than as a means as Savage Wombat talks about.
-All of the thinking that undergirds CR and encounter budgeting.

Wasn’t trying to go with “hur hur we like real WAR because I’m a REAL MAN but those others are playing silly easy SPORTS.” This whole thing is completely unrelated to difficulty level or skill needed.

As far as “war” being aggrandizing, maybe some of that leaked through but it really wasn’t the intent. At the time I was reading through the Black Company books and thinking how the tactics Croaker used reminded me more of a certain kind of D&D than anything else I’ve ever read. At the time I remember a player complaining about how munchkin it was for PCs to try to sneak a ballista into a dungeon and sneak attack a dragon with it literally hours after reading the Black Company staging an ambush that involved sneak attacking a powerful critter with a ballista at point blank range.

“Cheating” rather than “war” captures most of the intended meaning, but not really the emphasis on strategy/logistics over tactics.
[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] As far as the randomness goes, I think that’s really helpful in encouraging CaW (just like I find 1ed-style spell descriptions much more helpful than 0ed or 4ed ones) but not strictly necessary. You could approach a completely scripted series of encounters with a Black Company style mindset. Perhaps not the best fit but certainly possible.

Iosue said:
A civil discussion can only start when you accept that even if it wasn't what was intended, the Combat as Sport/Combat as War dichotomy is inherently uncivil.

See also: Magic Tea Party.

Iosue said:
I also suspect that there's something in a Sandbox/Adventure Path dichotomy.

Somewhat. I think really strict paths are bad for both as CaS really works best if the DM doesn’t fudge stuff while if you’re running a path you might have to fudge stuff to keep the path from getting derailed.

Tony Vargas said:
Political change is rarely the goal of adventurers. 'Banditry' would probably be a more accurate term, more in keeping with the vaguely medieval setting.

Knights vs. bandits works well except it still doesn’t really capture the tactics vs. strategy/logistics focus.
 

Iosue

Legend
Daztur, it looks like some quote attributions got a little messed up? I believe that both statements attributed to me were actually by neonchameleon.
 

Daztur

Adventurer
Daztur, it looks like some quote attributions got a little messed up? I believe that both statements attributed to me were actually by neonchameleon.

Yes, strange, I'll fix that when I have a minute. I wrote this up offline on the subway so I wrote out the quote tags etc. by hand and must've screwed something up.
 

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