Interesting Ryan Dancey comment on "lite" RPGs

Remathilis said:
I'd rather have a consistant, if heavier, ruled game than trust that my GM will come up with a fair and consistant ruling for such ad hoc options. Want my proof? My players NEVER tried to grapple, bull-rush or trip in combat until 3e rolled along.

Man. I'm sorry you had such bad experiences.

I couldn't GM my players if they didn't trust me. Nor could I play in someone's group if I didn't trust them.

Sorry, but that just sounds sad, and a good reason to play computer games.
 

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buzz said:
I don't see anything they are doing as attacking, and I don't see how ad hominems really help. These are two people whith a lot of genuine experience in the RPG biz. Agree with what they have to say or not, I find it all incredibly insightful.

Mearls is a good designer, absolutely.

Keep in mind though, that Dancey is and always has been primarily an organizational/marketing guy, not a designer. That, combined with his behavioral history of adjusting facts to suit his theories, well, I pretty much write everything he says off from the word "go."
 

fredramsey said:
True. But my point (not very well expressed, mind you) is why they felt it necessary to "talk trash" about other systems? And yes, no matter how many "this is my opinion"s you use, it comes out as trash talk.

As far as I am concerned, it paints them and their company in a bad light. High-profile people are representatives of their company 24 hours a day. It's part of the job. So why stir things up like this? What good does it do them?

If anything, I suppose, it could steer more people to smaller, friendly game companies and systems. After this, I certainly hope it does.

While I agree that Ryan Dancey is lacking in credibility, I'd advise those who are inflamed by his statements to not interpret them as reflective of WotC's views and attitude. Dancey is no longer associated with Wizards in any way.
 

fredramsey said:
True. But my point (not very well expressed, mind you) is why they felt it necessary to "talk trash" about other systems? And yes, no matter how many "this is my opinion"s you use, it comes out as trash talk.

Eh.

It's hard for those with invested opinions that his forecast don't look too kindly on to not appreciate his predictions.

But really, what started the blog was commentary on industry events. It's topical. And Mike feels he observes a pattern, apparently. (I don't want to speak for him, especially as he has already poked his nose in here today, but that's my perception anyways.)
 

buzz said:
From Mike Mearls' blog:
...Using a stopwatch, we found that consistently zero time was saved in character creation, or adjudicating disputes. In fact, in some games, disputes lasted substantially longer because the GM could not just point to a written rule in a book and call the argument closed.

My opinion is that most people think "rules lite" games are simpler and better because they desperately want them to be, not because they are.:

This is nonsense. ZERO time difference? What was the resolution of the stopwatch? Five minutes?
How about the GM creating a 12th level NPC for 3.5e and then create one for a rules lite system. Still think the difference will be zero? Ever have to create an NPC of greater than 4th or 5th level for a random encounter?

I don't want to spend any time pointing at rules. The only rule that a GM should EVER have to point to is the one that says the GM has the final say. And that he should only have to do once per new player. Any arguments will wait until after the session. There are exceptions to this: particularly if it could mean life or death for the PC.
 

Voadam said:
Doesn't basic set D&D qualify? Its not until you hit companion and master level rules that weapon mastery and variant class options got introduced. The no skills aspect appeals to me as a rules lite game. And it had plenty of support through modules as I remember it (B1-9).

I consider it rules-light, although it's not as light as say Fighting Fantasy, Twerps, Tunnels & Trolls, etc.
The whole light/medium/heavy is very subjective anyway, since people use different criteria to classify things.
 

Jupp said:
That character creation is taking as long in rules lite systems and rules-heavier systems I cannot believe. Char creation in D&D vs. C&C is like two worlds. Where in D&D it can take hours (no joke) I have yet to see someone having longer than 30 mins for a C&C character.
I have yet to see a 3.x D&D character that took more than 30 mins too, unless it was a new character at high level, or the player was just really indecisive and sat around wondering what he wanted to do.
 

Mythmere1 said:
Wow, what a bizarre assertion...was Mr. Dancey using humans or lab rats in his experiment?
Anyone who thinks Savage Worlds or Castles & Crusades don't play faster or create characters faster is using some weird control group.

I may well be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet that the focus groups that Ryan is referring to were conducted during the development of 3E...when neither of those particular games existed.
 

buzz said:
Give something like Everway to a group of nothing but newbies and you'll see a lot of head-scratching. Give them something like the Basic Set (a focused version of a complex game that provide clear goals for gameplay), and you give birth to a hobby.

Not really, no. Give Everway to neophyte *gamers* and they won't know what to do. Give Everway to people who have little to no experience with RPGs and the chief problem will be you, the GM, messing with their heads by trying to fit their experience into traditional gaming instead of just playing Everway. An ex of mine has actually run the game quite successfully at a summer camp program using this "non-gamerish" gaming idea.

The fact of the matter is that a sizeable chunk of gaming these days is rules light.

"But eyebeams, this is so outrageous and wrong, and contradicted by market data X!"

Newp. It's just that once it frames itself in a certain way, RPG players start ignoring it as "real" roleplaying.

These days, lost and lots and lots of people roleplay by post with no rules whatsoever. This is probably the majority of non-MMO online gaming right now. People play games where they fill the shoes of characters in Harry Potter or the X-Men and abide by GM moderation to unravel problems that simple conversation can't solve. They have lots of arguments, but they also have large, thriving communities.

The irksome thing for me as a game designer is that they don't need what I'm selling. They game by custom more than rule. It's like trying to sell crutches to competitive sprinters.

Past that, we have MMOs and ther computer games, which are strategically complex but put much of the tedium under the hood. Yes, the social sphere is different. The highs of dramatic interaction might be lacking. But one of the hidden principles of successful game design is in this ditty:

1) Most people run crappier games than they admit.
2) Their games tend to be crappy in the areas they stress the most.
3) This happens because of a combination of micromanagement and social dysfunction.

In truth, few people harvest the social potential of gaming -- they socialize in spite of the game. They use it as a pretext to socialize and this is what takes up a good chunk of the 4 hours/20 minutes equation.

It is possible -- easy even -- to design a game that teaches people how to maximize in-game social activity and integrate it with the rules and narrative. There are well-known principles that get used in dramatic arts all the time.

But that game would never sell, because in the end it would recommend a form of gaming that would either not be counted as gaming at all or would be absorbed by groups that aren't "official" games but are having plenty of fun nonetheless.

Incidentally, this is not just an indication that gamers suck or anything. The same dynamic is at work when people get together to play a game of casual soccer.
 
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scadgrad said:
WotC dominates the market because it cranks out more Rules Crunch than anyone else? It has has nothing what-so -ever to do w/ the fact that it's the D&D brand their crankin' out "rules heavy for?"

riiiiight.
There's quote from Mearls that I used to have in my .sig, which was basically, "If you think that D&D has remained popular simply becasue it was the first, or that it's a recognizeable brand, you have no business being a designer."

scadgrad said:
Look, WotC could have recreated 3.X as simply as The Window for instance, and because of the brand, it would have probably sold like hotcakes due to a combination of factors.
Well, they recreated ther hottest-selling campiagn setting and novel series, Dragonlance, as a rules-liteish RPG called SAGA, and we all know what a huge success that was. They even tied it with some of earth's most popular comic books with the Marvel SAGA game, and that went kaput, too.

(Granted, we also need to consider TSR's poor business practices.)

It's not all about branding.
 

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