Intimidate in combat: viable?

[shadowoflameth]

Intimidate in Combat

Intimidating a foe is a standard action, and yes, there is a -5 penalty to do it in combat. Unless you had the good fortune to happen upon a hostile otyough or whatever already bloodied, you are in combat in this scenario. If it's a level four creature and the DC is set at the hard end of the suggestions in the DMG, (which I have found in the last year to be pretty do-able for a min/maxed character) then you have 4 level +10 or 14 with -5 to your roll for in combat and -5 more for no language, and it only affects one creature, not so the otyough, not it's orc keepers or whatever. In effect your roll +21 would need to be 3 or higher with what must be all your resources in intimidate. Pretty reliable, but I don't image you have much else in the way of items at that level, and how to pull your weight getting the thing bloodied in the first place?

 

[Caliber]

That's patently wrong. Supernatural arcane power accounts for the majority of my character's intimidation. And it clearly goes a long way, as evidenced by my huge skill bonus. The character "somehow" portrays himself as that threatening because he leaks arcane lightning and thunder, flies around with glowing yellow eyes and a magical skull mask, while further boosted by unearthly charisma and a magical creature. Plus he's just plain good at being Intimidating already.

Wolverines can intimidate bears, why can't a fantasy hero that commands supernatural authority intimidate things that are generally thought to be larger or more tough?

Yes, but by the time the fight has progressed to the point that you are intimidating bloodied opponents, they've had time to actually see just how threatening you are. And in many cases, just because they are bloodied is no indication that you are in any way a threat. A wolverine can try to intimidate a bear, and can sometimes succeed. But I wouldn't want to be the wolverine when the bear decides it's not taking it that day.

The long and short of it is: this is supposed to be a difficult to use mechanic that is sometimes a viable choice. You are proposing to make it an at-will "I Win" button that ends neary every fight halfway through, many times in defiance of all logic. As a player, I'd probably ask you to stop it, as a DM I'd almost certainly begin giving monsters hefty DC bonuses against you.

I'd strongly suggest you clear this build with your DM before you go with it.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I've seen it run that you can't attempt Intimidation until/unless the target is bloodied.

That's the only way to run it, strictly by the rules. I also wouldn't allow a character to force a surrender at the start of a fight. But after I literally blast you with lightning until you leak blood, that really changes things.

 

[Caliber]

First off, it's only a 4 or higher if I blow an encounter utility, and I'm using it on an equal level opponent that has approximately 16 Will and speaks a language I know. Second off, I'm giving up valuable attack and damage bonuses to be able to use this tactic. The DM doesn't just add AC and HP because my attack and damage bonus is higher than he thought. You guys are acting like I'm cheating at dice or something because I don't think a DM should be able to ad-hoc a number you can't target just because he doesn't approve of your strategy.

You said the encounter only gives you a +2 earlier. I'm not sure Flip's point is altered much if you change the description of his at-will power from "roll a 4 or higher" to "roll a 6 or higher".

I think the DM should be able to ad-hoc a number because that is what the rules state. I'll restrain myself from speculating as to what purpose that ability is meant to be used for, but there it is.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

Intimidating a foe is a standard action, and yes, there is a -5 penalty to do it in combat. Unless you had the good fortune to happen upon a hostile otyough or whatever already bloodied, you are in combat in this scenario. If it's a level four creature and the DC is set at the hard end of the suggestions in the DMG, (which I have found in the last year to be pretty do-able for a min/maxed character) then you have 4 level +10 or 14 with -5 to your roll for in combat and -5 more for no language, and it only affects one creature, not so the otyough, not it's orc keepers or whatever. In effect your roll +21 would need to be 3 or higher with what must be all your resources in intimidate. Pretty reliable, but I don't image you have much else in the way of items at that level, and how to pull your weight getting the thing bloodied in the first place?

Actually, you can do it to multiple opponents with one Standard action. You just have to roll separately for each. And the mask is only a level 5 item. I'm a level 4 PC. I've also got the Staff of Ruin +1, and magical armor and neck slot. I pull my weight by being the only striker in the group and putting out a lot of damage through multitarget spells.

Yes, but by the time the fight has progressed to the point that you are intimidating bloodied opponents, they've had time to actually see just how threatening you are. And in many cases, just because they are bloodied is no indication that you are in any way a threat. A wolverine can try to intimidate a bear, and can sometimes succeed. But I wouldn't want to be the wolverine when the bear decides it's not taking it that day.

Then that's the wolverine's fault for failing its check, I guess. If I bomb a check on a red dragon, do you know what I just did? I made it easier for the dragon to kill us all because I didn't peg it with damage or status effects, or do something useful.

The long and short of it is: this is supposed to be a difficult to use mechanic that is sometimes a viable choice. You are proposing to make it an at-will "I Win" button that ends neary every fight halfway through, many times in defiance of all logic. As a player, I'd probably ask you to stop it, as a DM I'd almost certainly begin giving monsters hefty DC bonuses against you.

More like "it's supposed to be an impossibility, but proposing to make it an "I win faster" button that ends about 25% of fights earlier than planned". Seriously, have you ever tried this skill without maximizing it? It's freaking impossible. The only time my party used it, they had to spend all their standard actions using Aid Another on the guy with the highest check (which I believe according to RAW doesn't even work) and he STILL had to roll a 15 to pass. Luckily for him, he did. It flew in the face of "logic" because the party was losing the fight, but it was hilarious, climactic, and relieving. Everyone loved it.

I'd strongly suggest you clear this build with your DM before you go with it.

Well, I'm not going to, because there's nothing wrong with it. I'm not using illegal sources or crazy builds. I just stacked a few feats and items together, like most any character does. Why the hell would fellow players get mad at me for making an encounter easier to win? Nobody gets mad at you for stacking on piles and piles of damage, and effectively doing the same thing via attrition, instead of all at once with a single check.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

You said the encounter only gives you a +2 earlier. I'm not sure Flip's point is altered much if you change the description of his at-will power from "roll a 4 or higher" to "roll a 6 or higher".

Bad post is bad. Try reading what I write next time. If I use the skill on a level 8 artillery with huge Will defense that doesn't speak my language, I'm looking at 15 or higher, with my encounter power, with my super tricked out skill that I gave up a lot to get.

It's 6 or higher on a level 4 soldier or something that will freaking die with 1-2 more hits anyway. This is really not a big deal. =/

 

[RyvenCedrylle]

I've used this tactic before myself because I really enjoy it - especially for arcane characters. I've rolled Intimidate checks to cast Power Word: Kill, Cage of Force and Plane Shift. I also run a "Batman" Fighter who refuses to kill; enemies dropped to 0 HP either get knocked unconscious, pinned to various objects by their clothing, or are simply grabbed with a good old-fashioned blade-to-the-throat. As a GM, if you've built your character to do this really well, I'm going to let you do it to at least two or three enemies per encounter - about as many as you would defeat by HP depletion. After that, maybe DCs will start going up, but I find this particualr mechanic very rich in possibility and encourage it when at all possible.

 

[Griogre]

For what it's worth I think you missed the point on clearing it with the DM. I think the point was if the DM is going to always make the DC = 100 then you are wasting your time and should build another character.

On topic. You should be aware that this build is mostly front loaded and you are just front loading it more. The tactic tends to get less effective as your character advances in levels unless you can continually advance your Intimidate skill. This is because intimidate like all skills advances only one point per two levels. Will defenses for monsters advance one point *every* level.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

For what it's worth I think you missed the point on clearing it with the DM. I think the point was if the DM is going to always make the DC = 100 then you are wasting your time and should find a new gaming group

is how I would say it. But yeah, fair enough.

Re: front loading, I don't expect this campaign to hit mid-Paragon, to be honest. I just felt like trying something a bit different than "do as much damage as possible" with a striker.

 

[On Puget Sound]

In my campaign, a successful Intimidate on a bloodied monster causes it to believe that to fight on is hopeless and certain to end in its death. How the monster reacts to that belief depends on the situation and the monster; it does not always equal surrendering and being out of the fight. Frequently it will. But not always. The monster's intelligence, culture and motivations; the PC's actions, demeanor and reputation; the preceived likelihood of survival if the monster surrenders, pretends to surrender, flees, bluffs or feigns death may all play into the result. A successful check will always give the party some benefit, but it may not be a surrender.