Intimidate skill - How to fix it

[pbd]

So the intimidate skill is in a strange boat. Most classes that use it (most not all) have CHA as a dump stat and, lets face it, the slavering half-orc, covered with scars, and eating your friends leg, is just much scarier than a bard, even if he can sing really well.

I have seen multiple posts that suggest using strength as an alternative to CHA, I think this helps, but what about, say, the brooding wizard, who simly cracles with power, or the rogue that yuo can tell would wtik a knife your kidneys for a copper. or even the dwarf, who is complete ass (-2 CHA) but just reeks of copetence at killing? All of the characters woud exhume more menace as they grew in power.

So my suggestion is to link intimidate, not to CHA or even STR, but to class level. The real balancing challenge to this is what factor do you apply to level? Straight character level added in is too powerful, but is level/2 good? or level/ 3 or 4?

I think CHA should stll be allowed to modify (or even STR), but their should definately be a little squirting in the shorts happeneing if a regular orc meets a 20th level wizard right? Even if the wizard has no ranks in Intimidate.

Thoughts?

 

[Cabral]

Level is represented in the max skill ranks. The Intimidate is part strong arming and part bluff.

 

[Fieari]

Nonono. You're mixing up the two words "Fighten" and "Intimidate". They don't mean the same thing. The half-orc chewing somone's leg off is SCARY. It will make people scream and run away, or maybe grab a stick and try and stave your skull in, or call for the guards, or any number of things. Because you've just frightened and terrified them.

The half-orc with 12 ranks in intimidate chewing the leg off doesn't just SCARE the people though. It scares them in such a way as to MAKE THEM DO WHAT YOU WANT, AND ONLY WHAT YOU WANT. It's the mafia man who not only terrifies you, but terrifies you in such a way that you DON'T go to the police, and you DON'T run away screaming, you stay right where you are and do what the nasty man tells you. It's careful, calculated, made in such a way as to not induce frenzied panic, but controlled panic.

That's why intimidate is a charisma based skill. Any brute can frighten someone. But it takes sophistication to intimidate someone.

 

[pbd]

The half-orc chewing on th leg may be a bad example, but I am still trying to get at more of the deemoralize opponent feel here.

 

[Cabral]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/intimidate.htm

Demoralize Opponent
You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you.

This is basicly a skill based cause fear. Sounds good to me.

 

[Nyaricus]

One thing my original D&D group and i HR'd is that you may use any ability mod for Intimidate. A wizard would use his vast Inteligence to speak of the greatest evils ever whispered. The Rogue might grab a dagger and begin to flip in n hand, giving an evil glare or two. The Fighter might flex his great muscles, take his sword and begin to show off his skill with it.

The fact is, it is all about attitude I really doubt that D&D mechanics can really describe all that happens in real life via 300-some-odd pages and 6 ability scores. We did that because Fighters and Barbs should be able to Intimidate someone - as should any other class. We started with Str, and it went frmo there. For our purposes, it worked pretty well.

JUst a thought - hope that helps!

 

[DreamChaser]

One thing my original D&D group and i HR'd is that you may use any ability mod for Intimidate. A wizard would use his vast Inteligence to speak of the greatest evils ever whispered. The Rogue might grab a dagger and begin to flip in n hand, giving an evil glare or two. The Fighter might flex his great muscles, take his sword and begin to show off his skill with it.

Emphasis mine.

In each of your examples, Charisma creeps in. It does not matter how good you are at what else you do; if you cannot convey the right attitude, communicate clearly, convince others of your intentions, etc then you cannot be effectively intimidating.

A fighter or barbarian can be intimidating; but they may have to choose a dump stat other than charisma if they want to do it really well.

And also, keep in mind, that by level 2 or 3, your ranks are so much more significant than a -1 or -2 that it begins to balance out.

And looking at it another way:

should an uncharismatic fighter (Str 18, Cha 8), at 1st level, be as intimidating as the charismatic fighter (Str 18, Cha 14), also at 1st level? The latter is clearly better at getting his point across at the same time he is able to smash and flex just as much as the former. It seems clear that changing the stat for which Intimidate relies does little to really boost anyone but detracts significantly from Charisma based characters, removing their specialization in an area in which they excel.

Thems my thoughts,

DC

 

[General Barron]

I think you are limiting what Charisma really is.

Charisma represents how well you understand other people--their motivations, their feelings, what makes them 'tick', etc.

A high charisma character knows how to carry himself so that people will get out of his way in a crowded street. He knows that if he puts his hand on his sword pommel in just the right way, thugs will think twice before trying to mug him. He knows when yelling at someone will just make them mad, and when it will cower them.

You can be the strongest orc on the block, but unless you know how to present yourself, you still won't be as intimidating as the scrawny guy who understands other people really well. No other statistic--not strength, wisdom, intelligence, or even level--matters when it comes to trying to influence other people: it's all about how well a character actually understands others, which is represented by Charisma and the appropriate skills.

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Let's look at another Charisma skill: perform. Why is this skill linked to charisma? It takes a lot of manual dexterity to play an instrument, so shouldn't it be linked to Dex? How about oratory, wouldn't that take lots of intelligence to know all the big words and information you want to present? What about weapon drills (complete adventurer), wouldn't that take strength or dexterity to twirl the weapon about?

Of course, it does take all of these things, just like every other skill in DnD takes a certain amount of other abilities. But the most IMPORTANT thing when performing is to know your audience. You can play Mozart better than anyone alive, but if your audience prefers 50 Cent, then you just aren't going to impress them.

Again, the same goes for intimidation. You can be the strongest orc fighter on the block, but if your prisoner isn't afraid of death, then it isn't going to help you extract the information from them. But if the scrawny little bard (who understands people better than anybody) is able to figure out exactly what he IS afraid of, then he most likely WILL succeed.

 

[smootrk]

I agree with the Charisma as the bonus/penalty source.

I happen to work in a fitness center and I see a great number of folks with rather large muscles, flexing them in a mirror.... and usually they are laughable while they do it.

Then again, there are those that are not so big, but have an intimidating 'aura' to them. Folks that I would not want to mess with.

I would say that experience (max ranks) makes the most sense for Intimidate Skill, with interpersonal skill or CHA (of a sort) being the the modifier... as already written. I do not think it needs to be changed, although I potentially can see a synergy/circumstance bonus of a sort based upon other factors like the difference between STR scores of the Intimidator and Intimidatee (is that a word )

 

[General Barron]

I potentially can see a synergy/circumstance bonus of a sort based upon other factors like the difference between STR scores of the Intimidator and Intimidatee (is that a word )

I'd say it depends on what you are using the skill for. If all you use Intimidate for is to bully prisoners, then perhaps strength would make sense. But what about the example of walking down the street in a manner so that nobody approaches you? I suppose muscles might help for that as well, but I still see it as being entirely about how you carry yourself.

For that, if you really feel the need to modify, I'd use straight-up level. You might decide that "IMC, you can just 'tell' or 'feel' when someone is very powerful." In that case, the difference in level/HD could be used as a modifier; meaning that the 20th level wizard would easily be able to intimidate the orc, since he is just much more powerful (+19 to his check).

The problem is, Intimidate already uses the other guy's level/HD as the DC for the check. Basically the above mechanic would simply debase the skill as something you put ranks into. Meaning, currently if you are pouring max ranks into the skill, you already get a 'bonus' to your check if you out-level your target. If you increase this bonus, then you just make it easier for people without the skill to use it successfully. That could be what you are after, but would you do the same to other skills?