Intolerable!

[Thurbane]

Maybe they wanted the spotlight to be on the magazines during their final months?

I guess that sort of thinking makes me an optimist.

It's possible, but I highly doubt it. If WotC were that magnanimous, they probably would have relicensed the mags and let them co-exist with their online initiative and future (adventure/module) releases...

 

[Agamon]

I equate TSR becoming The Dragon as the same as Dungeon/Polyhedron becoming just Dungeon and Poly dying. There were some angry people then, too, but there were more happy people, I think. The mags in both cases changed to keep with what the majority of potential customers wanted.

But I don't think the majority of Dragon/Dungeon readers wanted the mags to be cancelled, this was WotC doing what it thought was best to make it's DI more enticing (why I think they aren't making a print mag alongside the DI), as well as get rid of some competition for it's own products (why they didn't extend or even renegotiate Paizo's deal).

 

[Darrin Drader]

I equate TSR becoming The Dragon as the same as Dungeon/Polyhedron becoming just Dungeon and Poly dying. There were some angry people then, too, but there were more happy people, I think. The mags in both cases changed to keep with what the majority of potential customers wanted.

I wouldn't know, I was only three years old when that happened. I would imagine that there were people unhappy about it though.

....as well as get rid of some competition for it's own products....

If the magazines were truly competition, why was WotC the biggest advertiser?

(why they didn't extend or even renegotiate Paizo's deal).

They did extend the deal to allow Paizo to finish the Savage Tide adventure path. Besides, we don't have any idea whether or not they tried to renegotiate the deal. Did Paizo want lower licensing fees? Did WotC want higher ones? We don't have the information, so I think it's premature to jump to conclusions about what happened or villainize WotC. We don't know what happened during the meetings, we only know the outcome.

 

[The Shaman]

Perhaps the point I was trying to make with this thread was lost, but I was not speaking out of derision.

Lost on me, at least.

It came across as mocking other people's reactions by an analogy that I don't find particularly apt - SR was not the iconic magazine of gaming for thirty years, and the physical format (i.e., paper, ink, staples) didn't radically change when it became TD.

If I misread your intentions, I'm sure that's as much a reflection on me as you. As is, the quote was interesting in a historical context, the faux outrage that followed was needless snark, IMO.

 

[Agamon]

I wouldn't know, I was only three years old when that happened. I would imagine that there were people unhappy about it though.

I was about the same age. I'm making a bit of an assumption, based on some Out on a Limb letters from people upset about Little Wars being combined with The Dragon (another similar situation).

If the magazines were truly competition, why was WotC the biggest advertiser?

If something you own the rights to, but have lent to someone else, is doing well, why wouldn't you advertise in it? Someone playing STAP might want a SpC or Complete book to help grow their game. But you can't say STAP, and all of the other adventures that come out in Dungeon isn't competition for any adventure WotC now releases.

They did extend the deal to allow Paizo to finish the Savage Tide adventure path. Besides, we don't have any idea whether or not they tried to renegotiate the deal. Did Paizo want lower licensing fees? Did WotC want higher ones? We don't have the information, so I think it's premature to jump to conclusions about what happened or villainize WotC. We don't know what happened during the meetings, we only know the outcome.

We do know that Paizo wanted to continue putting out the magazines, JJ posted as much on the Paizo MB. That's not absolute proof that Paizo wasn't playing hardball with WotC, but it just seems unlikely that Paizo would be unreasonable renegotiating a deal that was already quite good for them, resulting in WotC saying, "Aw, I guess they really don't want the mags anymore. I guess we'll just have to put them on our new DI thingy."

 

[Squire James]

Since I work in the software field, I know very well about how release dates might be a bit... murky. However, note that my post said NOTHING about mentioning when it would come out. All they needed to do was tell us what the freaking [AMAZING PRODUCT] is! Trying to time it so they reveal it at a convention is kind of like trying to have their cake and eat it too - it has the drawback that it's not possible!

That being said, WotC is a big company, and they can perhaps win back trust (especially if their product really is amazing). Paizo is not, and perhaps needed the little boost to get Pathfinder started. See, I'm not a total yutz. Still, I think their persistence in not announcing their new product immediately, convention or no convention, is pretty weak. It seems to indicate they don't even know what they want to do yet, which means the software being a reality is a long way off...

 

[Darrin Drader]

SR was not the iconic magazine of gaming for thirty years, and the physical format (i.e., paper, ink, staples) didn't radically change when it became TD.

First of all, it was my mistake, not knowing the full history of SR. I was under the impression that it was a much older magazine based on the numbering used in the Dragon Magazine archives. What most likely meant volume 2, number two (or issue 6) is numbered as STRV 202. I mistook it for a much old publication that was utilized by miniature wargamers, possibly purchased by TSR at some point early in their growth as a company, much like Gen Con.

If I misread your intentions, I'm sure that's as much a reflection on me as you. As is, the quote was interesting in a historical context, the faux outrage that followed was needless snark, IMO.

The point I was making about the not including board games and strategic games was that change happens. What seems like heresy today is often both accepted and embraced later. Did Gary Gygax really believe that Dungeons and Dragons would be around in thirty years when he launched it? Did he really believe that Dragon would be here this long after its inception? They had no more idea of its long-term survival than we have of this new online version. What if the online initiative fails but Pathfinder becomes a higher quality, more focused version of the magazines we know and love today?

What bothers me is that we, as a community, are so conservative that we get so bent out of shape when change happens, and that we have such a strong sense of entitlement. The fact is that roleplaying isn't as popular as it used to be because of personal computers and MMORPGs. Heck, if the PCs we have today would have been around thirty years ago, the preferred form of roleplaying might have been online, not on a tabletop. The world is changing around us, and business has to either keep up or fall behind. I think this is a case of WotC keeping up. Don't get me started on the gamer sense of entitlement.

 

[Vigilance]

It's possible, but I highly doubt it. If WotC were that magnanimous, they probably would have relicensed the mags and let them co-exist with their online initiative and future (adventure/module) releases...

Frankly, that sounds like a nightmare to BOTH sides.

Can you imagine being Paizo in that situation? You're printing a magazine, paying a license fee, and the company you're paying a license to is running an online service that provides the exact same sort of content?

Sometimes things just have to end. Sometimes trying to keep something past its time is the wrong decision.

If you think you can reach more people online, try to reach them there.

That's all they're doing.

 

[Thurbane]

Frankly, that sounds like a nightmare to BOTH sides.

Can you imagine being Paizo in that situation? You're printing a magazine, paying a license fee, and the company you're paying a license to is running an online service that provides the exact same sort of content?

Sometimes things just have to end. Sometimes trying to keep something past its time is the wrong decision.

If you think you can reach more people online, try to reach them there.

That's all they're doing.

Well, I have to disagree here.

I see absolutely no reason the digital initiative and Dragon/Dungeon couldn't have coexisted. Many products that provide "exactly the same sort of content" manage to coexist out there. It's called competition, and in general, is a very good thing for the consumer.

If they are doing this to "reach more people", then surely continuining the magazines AND launching the digital initiative would have reached even more people again. And I think at least 50,000 people would disagree with you that the magazines had run beyond their time...

Besides, my answer was primarily in response that the supposition that WotC weren't rolling out the digital inititative (or even previews of same) out some kind of respect for the last few issues of the magazines, which I frankly find highly implausible.

 

[The Shaman]

The point I was making about the not including board games and strategic games was that change happens. What seems like heresy today is often both accepted and embraced later. Did Gary Gygax really believe that Dungeons and Dragons would be around in thirty years when he launched it? Did he really believe that Dragon would be here this long after its inception? They had no more idea of its long-term survival than we have of this new online version. What if the online initiative fails but Pathfinder becomes a higher quality, more focused version of the magazines we know and love today?

All of which was summed up succinctly by the quote itself, sans snarkiness.

What bothers me is that we, as a community, are so conservative that we get so bent out of shape when change happens, and that we have such a strong sense of entitlement.

Ask a Cincinnati Reds fan how s/he feels about the Milt Pappas/Frank Robinson trade.

Hardcore fans hold hardcore opinions. In other news, water still wet, sky still blue.