Invisibility and Etherealness?

[ColonelHardisson]

I'm sure this has been addressed before, but I was wondering - is there a rules citation from the Core Books which directly addresses whether invisibility works against an ethereal creature? Say my wizard used invisibility to sneak away from a ghost - would the ghost see him or not? We have our own interpretations of the situation, but we'd like to see what the actual books have to say about it.

I just know it's going to be someplace obvious, but hey, this won't be the first time I've looked dumb...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Just for the record, my interpretation of what is in the Core Books is that, no, invisibility does not work against an ethereal creature. That ghost can see the wizard just fine. A few guys I know just wanted an "official" source so as to squelch an argument.

 

[jontherev]

The Etherealness description does not say anything (from my 'once-over' reading) about them being able to sense invisible creatures. They see and hear in a 60' radius and material things block their view just as it would anyone else. They don't sense like Blindsight afaik. Did I miss something...this would be news to me.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

My reasoning is that illusions, like invisibility, manipulate light, and don't alter the basic nature of something. Since material objects already are hazy and appear insubstantial to an ethereal creature, I figure that something even more insubstantial, like an illusion, wouldn't show up at all. Force-based spells and abjurations work because they summon something substantial, that works on a deeper level than illusions.

 

[The_lone_gunman]

Your logic is good, but not supported by the rules as far as I know, but it would make a perfectly reasonable house rule. I would not allow ethereal creatures to see invisible ones simply because that seems beyond the scope of etherealness. If it was a side effect I would have thought they would have spelled it out. If you need a reason as to why it works, just say its magic .

Understand that this would also make ethereal creatures completely immune to the Illusion school of magic......

TLG

 

[dkilgo]

I don't know. This is a tricky one.

The text does not officially state whether an ethereal creature can see an invisible creature, or not. But, I would have to say that the ethereal creature can not see through the illusion of invisibility. On these grounds, illusions do in fact bend the light to affect the way things are perceived, and the ethereal creature sees all material things as hazy images. Well, if you go by how sight actually works then you would realize that the creature sees the light that is refracted back to the creature, and these images are interpreted by the cones and rods in the back of the characters eyes. See where I am going with this? The illusion refracts the light around the material object/creature to make the object/creature appear invisible. Hence, the ethereal creature would not be able to see the invisible object/creature.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

See, I can't really argue with any of these interpretations. Those who have been discussing the subject have considered both sides of the issue. The problem lies in the fact that it isn't addressed in the rules, so far as we can tell. I figured I'd see if anyone could provide a direct citation from the text of the Core Books that was more definitive than what we'd found. Personally, I'm gonna stick with my interpretation, but I can see how others would be inclined the other way. Thanks for the help!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I don't know. This is a tricky one.

The text does not officially state whether an ethereal creature can see an invisible creature, or not. But, I would have to say that the ethereal creature can not see through the illusion of invisibility. On these grounds, illusions do in fact bend the light to affect the way things are perceived, and the ethereal creature sees all material things as hazy images. Well, if you go by how sight actually works then you would realize that the creature sees the light that is refracted back to the creature, and these images are interpreted by the cones and rods in the back of the characters eyes. See where I am going with this? The illusion refracts the light around the material object/creature to make the object/creature appear invisible. Hence, the ethereal creature would not be able to see the invisible object/creature.

I understand your reasoning, but I see it like this: physical objects on the material plane have analogs on the ethereal plane. That is, one is seeing a something like a spirit version of the object, not the object itself. In effect, ethereal creatures are seeing the "ghosts" of objects, and thus the way light is refelcting off the object in the material world has no bearing on what is going on in the ethereal world. But, again, that's just my way of looking at it.

 

[hong]

According to the rules, there's nothing about ethereal creatures that says they're affected differently by invisibility to anyone else. It will work on a ghost just as well as on an orc, or whatever.

 

[jontherev]

"An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight and sound. (An ethereal creature can’t see through a material wall, for instance.) Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly."

According to the rules above, objects on the material plane are not transparent. The rules seem to indicate that ethereal creatures detect within 60' normally, though they can't pick out colors. There is nothing in the rules afaik that says they can see 'through' people/objects. What you are proposing would be a house rule. Indistinct/hazy does not equate to transparent. I still don't get the connection above with being able to sense invisible creatures, other than 'it's magic/supernatural!'