Invisibility + Fighter's Mark = ??

[Dracorat]

If a fighter has a pretty good idea the now-invisible person he marked is in a particular square (and he's right) and that person is marked by the fighter ... can the fighter take an immediate action to attack if he shifts?

I ask because if, on the other hand, he runs away with a double move run (making all the noise in the world) - the fighter doesn't get to attack him, so making a more careful move but provoking the interrupt seems ... wrong.

Yet, I can't find why it wouldn't be so.

(Running away would instead provoke an OA except you can't OA a foe you can't see.)

 

[DracoSuave]

The fighter can, but then the invisible guy wouldn't be shifting in this case. He's going to walk where he pleases, because he can't provoke OAs while invisible. So the difference really makes no difference.

 

[Dracorat]

Actually, one person beside the enemy could see him, so it did make a difference.

But the fighter could not - so it became a debate over whether the enemy would be subject to one attack no matter what, or if he could shift and then run (once) to avoid both.

 

[DracoSuave]

In that case he can't avoid being attacked. But given his choice is a fighter and someone else, the smart money is on taking the hit from someone else.

To help visualize it, ask yourself what the 'care' is in shifting that makes it avoid opportunity attacks. It isn't moving slowly, that makes you -more- likely to get smacked by an angry man swinging a weapon at you.

What it probably represents is the fact that you're not walking away, you're taking a quick step while your attention is on defending yourself. In the case of weaponplay, that means you're actively parrying, dodging, and otherwise interacting with his weapon in such a way that most combatants don't get an easy opening.

Well, if you're clanging your weapon (read: spell shielding, or whatever your character's defense fluff is) against his, that's a clue that you're there. And if he feels you backing up, his training does allow him to get his last swap in, because unlike others, he is -explicitly- trained in finding an opening in that situation.

However if you stop parrying, and stop giving him that clue to your position, suddenly he's fighting totally blind. He can't answer your movement because he cannot sense where your weapon is, and thusly, you can escape.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The general question at the heart of this is "Can an immediate action be triggered, if the character is unaware that the trigger has occurred?"

For example, if I have a Readied action - if an opponent comes within two squares, I Fey Step - does my Readied action trigger if an invisible opponent comes within two squares and I fail to notice him?

Or can I use Weave Through The Fray if I don't know an enemy has moved adjacent to me?

Can I use Act Together (Pathfinder 12) to gain an action point, if my ally spends an action point to take an extra action... in a room two floors below me?

-Hyp.

 

[Dracorat]

Yeah, I think that's the best way to ask the question at large, Smurf.

Has this been discussed already?

I'll start searching...

 

[Dracorat]

I am not discounting your stance, Suave. It still feels wrong to me though ... I guess I'd like the comfort of some black and white on a page somewhere that spells out the situation. Otherwise, I'll just have to let my players rationalize it in the same manner, whatever makes them feel good.

 

[DreamChaser]

I would suggest that a Mark implies that the fighter is paying extra attention to the baddie so that even if they went invisible, the baddy would still be marked. The fighter could hear / feel him move and attack (think of it like Luke Skywalker deflecting the shots while blindfolded). He would still suffer the penalties to his attack from the invis and at the end of the round (if he failed to hit him) the baddie would no longer be marked and the benefit would go away.

In general, I'd say the specific (Mark) overcomes the rule (invisible / unaware).

I would argue that you cannot in general base an immediate reaction / interrupt on an action you have no awareness of. I don't think a marked and invisible enemy counts for that because the mark makes the fighter aware of the enemy.

 

[Dracorat]

But he can't feel his move if it's a run?

(Reemphasizing the dilemma)

 

[DracoSuave]

He can -hear- him run, but he can't -feel- him running by the CLANG CLANG SHINK CLANG against his swinging blade. Cause there is no CLANG CLANG SHINK CLANG. The fighter'd probably take a swing, but would whiff because of not knowing where exactly to swing. Compare that to if the fighter could see him, where the guy'd turn around, to have the fighter just grab his shoulder, smack him in the back with his sword, and turn him right around 'OH NO YOU'RE GOIN' NOWHERE.'

Hard to do that when you can't see the guy to grab.