Invisibility question

[Hand of Vecna]

I'm fairly certain this has been asked before on these boards, or addresses in a Sage Advice column, but since I don't have any of my Dragons nearby, and I didn't find that question on the boards with a quick look, I'll go ahead and ask...

If a spellcaster casts Invisibilty on himself, can he see himself? Or, to be more general, can anyone who has had Invisibility cast on them see themselves?

Obviously if the subject looked in a mirror, he'd not see himself reflected in it, but if he just looked down to where his feet should be, would he see them?

This may seem like a silly (even stupid/retarded) question to some of you, but think about it this way -- the spell description says " if the character casts the spell on someone else, neither the character nor the character's allies can see the subject, unless the character can normally see invisible things or employ magic to do so." This sentence indicates to me that a human wizard casting Invisibility on himself would not be able to see himself (since humans cannot normally see inivisble objects/creatures).

Additionally, in the numerous "Invisible Man" movies/tv shows, the Invisible Man never saw himself -- he was just as invisible to himself as he was to others (or else he'd see a faint outline of himself).

On the other hand, in LotR (which D&D borrowed/borrows heavily from), Frodo could see himself when he put on The One Ring and turned invisible. Then again, he was sort-of shifted into another plane (The Shadow World), so that argument doesn't completely hold, either.

Anyway, how do YOU run Invisibility?

(( this whole question arose from a Game the other week. An Invisible comrade was trying to fool someone who knew he was there and wanted proof of something or other, and as the character was talking to buy some time, he was trying to forge some documents to prove he was who he said he was [the character had a full forger's kit, and samples of Big Bad Guys handwriting]. It was getting late and I was somewhat cranky, and blurtd out "How can he see to write?" Player said that the character could see himself & all his equipment; I had some doubts. I later apologized for my outburst, but the questions remains in my fevered brain..... ))

 

[CRGreathouse]

The way I run it, you're invisible - to yourself as well as others. Give the player a sample of your handwriting and let them forge it with their eyes closed.

 

[Taloras]

I havent looked at the spell description lately, but i believe that if the character puts down the forgery kit, it becomes visible. if he picks it up, its still visible unless he puts it in a pocket or something. Therefore, all he would have to do to write, would be to put down the pen, pick it up, he can see the pen to write with. However, the other person can also see the forgery kit. So the character would have to hide first to forge the documents, or the other person would see him writing it. Correct me if im wrong, though, but thats how i think i remember the spell....anything the character picks up after becoming invisi is still visible, anything he puts down becomes visible, and anything trailing from him more than 10 feet(such as a rope to another char) becomes visible at the 10 ft mark.

 

[shilsen]

I havent looked at the spell description lately, but i believe that if the character puts down the forgery kit, it becomes visible. if he picks it up, its still visible unless he puts it in a pocket or something. Therefore, all he would have to do to write, would be to put down the pen, pick it up, he can see the pen to write with. However, the other person can also see the forgery kit. So the character would have to hide first to forge the documents, or the other person would see him writing it. Correct me if im wrong, though, but thats how i think i remember the spell....anything the character picks up after becoming invisi is still visible, anything he puts down becomes visible, and anything trailing from him more than 10 feet(such as a rope to another char) becomes visible at the 10 ft mark.

Nice explanation. That's the way I run Invisibility.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

sounds reasonable....

 

[Voadam]

From the srd:

The creature or object touched vanishes from sight, even from darkvision. If the recipient is a
creature carrying gear, the gear vanishes, too. If the character casts the spell on someone else,
neither the character nor the character's allies can see the subject, unless the character can normally see invisible things or employ magic to do so.

The first sentence seems clear that the character vanishes from all sight including the subject of the spell. The last sentence implies otherwise by specifying only the caster and allies. It does not say the subject of the spell when specifically mentioning the caster and his allies.


That said, the way I run it is that the glamer makes the subject invsible, period. To himself, as well as others.

 

[RedShirtNo5]

This has been discussed a couple times.

My understanding is that invisible creatures can see themselves. It isn't stated explicitly in Invisibility, but it is stated in Invisibility Sphere.

Invisibility Sphere

As invisibility, except this spell confers invisibility upon all creatures within 10 feet of the recipient. The center of the effect is mobile with the recipient.

Those affected by this spell cannot see each other but can see themselves. Any affected creature moving out of the area becomes visible, but creatures moving into the area after the spell is cast do not become invisible. Affected creatures (other than the recipient) who attack negate the invisibility only for themselves. If the spell recipient attacks, the invisibility sphere ends.

I don't see any reason to treat the two spells differently in this respect. And it makes adjudicating invisibility easier.

In addition, if you couldn't see yourself, there would have been some discussion of circumstance penalties for skill checks such as Open Locks in the description of invisibility on DMG p. 78-79.

-RedShirt