Invisibility Questions

[Gorgon]

Does a spell that allows a saving throw with the harmless descriptor cause an invisible caster to become visible?

Do the following spells cause an invisible character to become visible?
Flame Shield
Wind Wall
Wall of Thorns
Wall of Ice
Wall of Iron

 

[Mahali]

If it's an attack (trying to trap someone in a wall of ice) or has a saving throw then it makes you visible.

 

[Falling Icicle]

Does a spell that allows a saving throw with the harmless descriptor cause an invisible caster to become visible?

Usually not. A spell has to be a DIRECT attack to end invisibility.

Do the following spells cause an invisible character to become visible?
Flame Shield

No. But light and energy can't be made invisible. So the result would be a halo of fire running around with the cut out image of an invisible person in the center. Quite a sight, to be sure, but not the most effective way to hide.

Wind Wall

No.

Wall of Thorns

No. Unless it is actually created on or under the creature. If you create the wall of thorns as a barrier, and creatures run into it later, that is not an attack.

Wall of Ice

Only if used to trap a creature.

Wall of Iron

No. The caster merely creates the wall which then topples over on its own. This one is more subject to interpretation than the others, but that's how I'd rule it.

 

[UltimaGabe]

The caster merely creates the wall which then topples over on its own. This one is more subject to interpretation than the others, but that's how I'd rule it.

I'd agree with you on this one. Summoning a Bear and having the Bear attack, even directly, doesn't cause the caster to become visible. In the same way, neither would this. What if you were to summon a bear, and have the bear topple onto the target? Would the caster become visible then?

 

[Mahali]

"For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Wall of Iron: the wall is an attack. It can do damage and they get a saving throw, which means it's an attack and you become visible.

I agree with all the others.

 

[Falling Icicle]

"For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe."

Exactly. A Wall of Iron isn't targeting the foe. It is targeting the spot where the caster chooses to create it. That it topples over after that, while unfortunate for the smashed creature, isn't any more of a direct attack than a summoned creature or a wall of fire the creature runs into later.

 

[Darklone]

Same for Wall of Fire or Ice. If you just use the spell to put a wall somewhere with noone in the area, it's no attack and you stay invisible. If not, you become visible.

 

[Gorgon]

So darklone, it is not whether the spell could cause damage, or has a saving throw, but that is does cause damage or forces a saving throw that makes it an attack.

If i fireball an empty area do i become visible. If i do i fail to see how that is different to a wall of fire, which has a damage component.

Wall of ice and wall of thorns also have damage components. Wall of thorns also has the ability to hamper subjects, one of the definitions of an attack spell.

I do not think that you need to damage, hamper, harm or cause an opponent to make a save to class the spell as an attack; just that if the spell has the ability to do one of these makes it an attack spell. Invisibility is not a divination spell, it does not know when an invisible opponent is subject to other spells you cast so that u become visible, nor does it make u visible later when someone needs to make a saving throw.

But if we follow my logic invisibility is broken by Cure Light Wounds as it can cause damage, and it gives a saving throw. Not sure if that is what the designers wished for.

 

[Herpes Cineplex]

If i fireball an empty area do i become visible.

Okay, hands up: who else read this and thought "Why are you casting fireball on an empty area?"

I appreciate a good thought experiment as much as the next guy, but man, I wonder what kind of game you're playing in where this situation could come up. Do a lot of people have games where the wizard decides to go invisible and then cast fireball on empty space, just to see if he turns visible again?

Hey, here's an idea--what if it's a silent, still fireball, and the caster has been struck by both blindness and deafness? I wonder if he'd be around to know whether he was still invisible or not...



--
occam's five o'clock shadow
ryan

 

[shilsen]

Okay, hands up: who else read this and thought "Why are you casting fireball on an empty area?"

I appreciate a good thought experiment as much as the next guy, but man, I wonder what kind of game you're playing in where this situation could come up. Do a lot of people have games where the wizard decides to go invisible and then cast fireball on empty space, just to see if he turns visible again?

Nope. You're telling me that it seems more reasonable to you that in the history of the existence of the invisibility spell in a given D&D campaign no wizard ever experiments to discover its limitations?