invisibity and sneak attacks

[Voadam]

Thanks for the replies,

The essential question seems to be when the victim gets his Dex bonus back. Does anyone have a rules reference for when that happens? A number of people say it is at the beginning of the victim's next turn which sounds like applying the surprise flat footed rules. The victim is not flat footed however and according to the spell on the srd:

"If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible"

Therefore the invisibility seems to be broken immediately on the first strike, so the character is visible for the second and third strikes.

From the condition summary in the srd it says:

"Invisible
Visually undetectable. Invisible creatures gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls and negate Dexterity bonuses to their opponents' AC."

Therefore it seems that when the character is no longer invisible, his opponent should no longer be denied his dexterity bonus.

I have not found a reference saying the opponent must wait for his turn again to gain his dex bonus back.

That's why I'm thinking the 1 sneak attack option is correct according to the rules.

However, if there was a reference to Dex not being regained until the victim's next turn then the 3 sneak attack option would be correct.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The victim immediately gets his Dex bonus back the moment the attacker is visible.

The idea he does not get it back until his next action is a perversion of the surprise/flat-footed rules based on the assumption that getting attacked by an invisible opponent is the same thing as surprise.

It is not. At least if you want to use the rules as written.

The confusion stems from not understanding there is a fundamental difference between before initiative has occurred and afterwards. Once initiative begins, you are assumed to have your full Dex benefits unless a few special circumstances exist. One such circumstance is that you have no Dex with respect to a currently invisible attacker.

The net result is that Rogues often are much more effective ambushing from surprise then attacking from invisibility in the middle of a brawl. I do not see any problem with that, but it is a subtlety that causes confusion when first learning the rules. I confess I once stumbled on it a bit myself.

 

[melkoriii]

All 3 are sneak attack

All 3 attacks get sneak attack.

You are a invisible attacker even though he knows your there.

He is dexless till his next action
Full attack action = 3 sneak attacks

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: All 3 are sneak attack

You are a invisible attacker even though he knows your there.

He is dexless till his next action

That is the point that is being debated - is he really dexless until his next action?

While this is the case - as Ridley's Cohort pointed out - if someone is caught flat-footed, there is a difference between "flat-footed" and "denied Dexterity bonus against an invisible attacker".

There is an obvious precedent for someone losing there Dex bonus against only one attack in a round - use of the Bluff skill to feint in combat.

On a successful feint, you deny your opponent his Dex bonus for your next attack.

If he didn't get it back until his next action, then you could use Bluff in one round, and the next round make a full attack action with ITWF for five sneak attacks. This is clearly not the intention of the feint - it only works for one attack. So we know that someone can have a variable Dex bonus against the same opponent in one round.

The invisible attacker makes his first attack. Since he is invisible, his opponent is denied his Dex bonus, and the attack is a sneak attack. He is now no longer invisible. By the rule on p124, he now decides (since he hasn't moved this round) whether he is making a standard attack or a full attack. He chooses full attack, and as a non-invisible attacker, continues with the other four strikes in his full attack routine. Since he is visible, his opponent receives a Dex bonus, and the attacks are not sneak attacks.

Unless you can provide a reference for "He is dexless until his next action" that doesn't require him to be flatfooted?

-Hyp.

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Re: All 3 are sneak attack

He is dexless till his next action

So far, the only argument I've seen that this is the case is repetition. I know of no support for this rather strange assertion in the actual D&D rules. Naturally, being flat-footed (which by definition lasts until your action) denies your Dex bonus to AC, but that's quite different from saying that any condition that denies your Dex bonus to AC lasts until your action.

I invite anyone out there to make a prima facie case for this assertion rather than just repeating it again, but I think you'll find it can't be done.

 

[Psyduck]

my opinion

I vote in favor of 1 attack being a sneak attack. I'm not sure why someone would lose their dex for the remainder of the round. So if this target who loses his dex until his next turn gets bull rushed, the rogue gets an AoO that also counts as a sneak attack??? I think not. He regains his dex as soon as the rogue becomes visible, since being invisible is what causes him to lose his dex in the first place.

 

[BluWolf]

I agree with HyperSmurf.

The point of confusion is the classification of the target. He is dednied heis dex versus an invisble attacker, not flat-footed.

I also agree that people (my self included) are making the assumption that when someone is dednied dex until thier next action from a bluff or fient does not apply here.

My OPINION, first attack= sneak attack, subsequent attacks are normal.

 

[Uller]

A nice even division of folks thinking both ways. My unofficial 2 cents:

You become invisible after you "attack". This, in my reading, is referring to the "attack" action, not the swinging of a sword. So whatever the "attack" is, the sneak attack damage applies to it.

In this case, the "attack" happens to be 3 attack rolls. Sneak attack damage would apply to all 3.

No. The spells says it ends when the subject attacks, not after an attack action or some such. You swing your sword then you are no longer invisibile. If you are not invisible, your target is not denied his dex bonus to AC. If your target is not denied his dex, no sneak attack damage. Period.

I'd say it is a pretty strong leaning toward option 1.