D&D 4E Iron Heroes for 4e?

[Pbartender]

You're right, and I'm wrong. It isn't until PHB2 when the expected equipment is explicitly stated.

Where?

Unless you are referring to the "Tables for appropriate NPC equipment for each level of the various classes" on page 217 of the PHB II. On previous pages it suggests that players in a hurry may use these equipment packages to quickly equip PCs, but there nothing that says the magical bonuses included in such packages follow any sort of formula or that those bonuses were used to determine CR levels when creating monsters for the Monster Manual.

 

[Pbartender]

Maybe it's because I play and DM with friends who are, mostly, reasonable human beings and whose joy comes from having a good time with an interesting story and strategical/tactical challenges. If my experience came from overcompetitive munchkins, I'd probably think differently.

But seriously, it's just a matter of adjusting the CRs a bit and being watchful of what feats you adopt. And if the reason why I've had no problems in years of DMing that way is because I and my players don't know any better, I'm happy of being so stupid as to enjoy my badwrongfun, thanks

You're being insulting and purposefully obtuse.

Having players to enjoy effective characters has nothing to do with what we're talking about. What we're talking about is the ease with which the player character's access to magic can be adjusted within the game, while still keeping the game rules balanced.

In 4E, apprently, all that is required is to make certain the assumed bonuses to attack, damage, saves, and AC are preserve. After that, you can simply ignore magic.

In 3E, you have individually evaluate every single class level, special ability, feat, and monster encounter that's introduced -- consider, for example, a CR3 Shadow, which is incorporeal and therefore practically unstoppable without magic. For many DMs, that's far too much work to worry about.

I've come to believe that those minmaxing problems about power combos and such start dissapearing when you start a campaign at 1st level and PCs have to actually earn those levels/feats/powers.

Minmaxing problems really have nothing to do with the arguement.

I've seen evidence to the contrary. I've personally seen just as many problems with minmaxxed characters that began at 1st level... It just takes longer to see the problems emerge.

 

[Betote]

You're being insulting and purposefully obtuse.

It's not my intention. I apologize.

Having players to enjoy effective characters has nothing to do with what we're talking about. What we're talking about is the ease with which the player character's access to magic can be adjusted within the game, while still keeping the game rules balanced.

In 4E, apprently, all that is required is to make certain the assumed bonuses to attack, damage, saves, and AC are preserve. After that, you can simply ignore magic.

The key word, IMO, is "apparently". I'm curious to see how a PC can handle a flying or incorporeal opponent without magic and maintaining suspension of disbelief.

In 3E, you have individually evaluate every single class level, special ability, feat, and monster encounter that's introduced -- consider, for example, a CR3 Shadow, which is incorporeal and therefore practically unstoppable without magic. For many DMs, that's far too much work to worry about.

As I've already said, I'm curious to see how 4E handles those encounters. Please keep in mind that, when I say "low magic campaigns", I'm refering to low magic worlds, not campaigns with low magic PCs. If a character without any magic means is capable of wrestle a shadow, I'll be dissapointed.

 

[hong]

Why, exactly, are you putting flying and incorporeal opponents into a "low magic world"?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Why, exactly, are you putting flying and incorporeal opponents into a "low magic world"?

Well, there are flying opponents even in a low magic world.

That's why you have to master Conan's signature, "Crucified Vulture Lure" technique.

 

[Felon]

Maybe it's because I play and DM with friends who are, mostly, reasonable human beings and whose joy comes from having a good time with an interesting story and strategical/tactical challenges. If my experience came from overcompetitive munchkins, I'd probably think differently.

But seriously, it's just a matter of adjusting the CRs a bit and being watchful of what feats you adopt. And if the reason why I've had no problems in years of DMing that way is because I and my players don't know any better, I'm happy of being so stupid as to enjoy my badwrongfun, thanks

That's a rather sloppy response. Being able to see the holes in a set of mechanics doesn't make someone a munchkin. The ability to notice patterns and understand risk-to-reward ratios aren't negative traits.

 

[Felon]

Why, exactly, are you putting flying and incorporeal opponents into a "low magic world"?

It always seemed to me that the point of throwing an incorporeal (or otherise seemingly invulnerable) opponent at the players is so that they'll try to figure out a way to deal with the threat that isn't purely brute force. It's basically a plot device situation. If the character's are just going to pull out some weapon that allows them to hack a ghost to death, then that seems to rather defeat the purpose.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

It always seemed to me that the point of throwing an incorporeal (or otherise seemingly invulnerable) opponent at the players is so that they'll try to figure out a way to deal with the threat that isn't purely brute force. It's basically a plot device situation. If the character's are just going to pull out some weapon that allows them to hack a ghost to death, then that seems to rather defeat the purpose.

True, but that does seem to play into Hong's point rather than away from it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, there are flying opponents even in a low magic world.

That's why you have to master Conan's signature, "Crucified Vulture Lure" technique.

Eagles, Hawks, Vultures, Bats are not really problematic flying opponents.

The only flying opponent that can be troublesome is one with ranged attacks. Like Dragons or Yrthaks. And I guess this stuff should be as rare as incorporeal monsters. When they appear in the story, the PCs will either run away, solve the mystery, or be prepared to take them down with some limited magical trinkets...

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Eagles, Hawks, Vultures, Bats are not really problematic flying opponents.

The only flying opponent that can be troublesome is one with ranged attacks. Like Dragons or Yrthaks. And I guess this stuff should be as rare as incorporeal monsters. When they appear in the story, the PCs will either run away, solve the mystery, or be prepared to take them down with some limited magical trinkets...

A Dragon's range on its breath attack isn't an insurmountable obstacle either. They have to get pretty low to strafe you, and your archer will have been building up aim tokens the whole time it's been circling ya.