Iron Heroes...is it really different from core D&D?

[iwatt]

My argument is not that it can' not be done for low magic, it is that it is not a low magic only setting. In every quote, argument and wording I've heard from you guys not one person can tell me where it says this is a low magic only setting, yet in your own proof the design is there for all types of games.

Don Tadow. OPen your IH book. Go to the Introduction. Read the first four sentences of the book:

Iron Heroes focuses on action and adventure. Your character’s
talents and abilities, rather than his equipment,
determine his capabilities. Magic in Iron Heroes is a dangerous
force, one that is as likely to harm its user as his enemies.
Before you get started with the rules, this introduction
gives you an overview of what you can expect from this book.

The book is full of sentences like this. The base fact is that RAW IH is low magic for the PCs. It's the way it's mechanically constructed for balance. All the appendix and conversions say to be very careful when using D&D spellcasting classes, in order to keep the balance, unless you're going to use them as villains, since they are allowed to break the rules.

Now I have a couple of questions for you Tadow:

- How do you keep PC balance when you introduce "trustworthy magic" for the PCs.
- How do you handle magic items coupled with IH token mechanics and class abilities?
- How does a D&D magic class compare to a tricked out and buffed up IH class?

 

[DonTadow]

Don Tadow. OPen your IH book. Go to the Introduction. Read the first four sentences of the book:




The book is full of sentences like this. The base fact is that RAW IH is low magic for the PCs. It's the way it's mechanically constructed for balance. All the appendix and conversions say to be very careful when using D&D spellcasting classes, in order to keep the balance, unless you're going to use them as villains, since they are allowed to break the rules.

Now I have a couple of questions for you Tadow:

- How do you keep PC balance when you introduce "trustworthy magic" for the PCs.
- How do you handle magic items coupled with IH token mechanics and class abilities?
- How does a D&D magic class compare to a tricked out and buffed up IH class?

I'm sorry this feels like a circle. Like i said, interpreit it for what you want, heck it can be french for all i care. I'm not sure how much proof you need. The book avoids calling it low magic, the authors (both before and after its released said it was not low magic but moreso high adventure) and many fans use it for both low and high magic.

Again we have one of these threads were people are attempting to tell others their not playing the right way. This time nothing to back you up but broad interpretations.

YOur example, magic is dangerious... yes magic is dangerious, doesnt make it more or less abundant in the world.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm sorry this feels like a circle. Like i said, interpreit it for what you want, heck it can be french for all i care. I'm not sure how much proof you need. The book avoids calling it low magic, the authors (both before and after its released said it was not low magic but moreso high adventure) and many fans use it for both low and high magic.

They didn't call it low magic because most D&D players assume that "Low Magic" = "Low Power and Low Adventure". Neither of those is true in Iron Heroes.

It was a marketing decision. You know, that stuff we both agree that I stink at.

Again we have one of these threads were people are attempting to tell others their not playing the right way.

We are? I thought we'd been saying for a while that you can play the game however you want to. Heck, both iwatt and myself have asked you how you play the game the way you describe because we want to play it that way.

This time nothing to back you up but broad interpretations.

Are you even reading our posts? They contain no broad interpretations, merely a very slight rewording of the text found within in the Iron Heroes book. (All quotes are verbatim. As you can easily confirm if you desire to do so.)

YOur example, magic is dangerious... yes magic is dangerious, doesnt make it more or less abundant in the world.

For the last time, there is a lot of magic in the world of Iron Heroes. There is not a lot of magic in the hands of Iron Heroes.

 

[DonTadow]

They didn't call it low magic because most D&D players assume that "Low Magic" = "Low Power and Low Adventure". Neither of those is true in Iron Heroes.

It was a marketing decision. You know, that stuff we both agree that I stink at.

We are? I thought we'd been saying for a while that you can play the game however you want to. Heck, both iwatt and myself have asked you how you play the game the way you describe because we want to play it that way.

Are you even reading our posts? They contain no broad interpretations, merely a very slight rewording of the text found within in the Iron Heroes book. (All quotes are verbatim. As you can easily confirm if you desire to do so.)

For the last time, there is a lot of magic in the world of Iron Heroes. There is not a lot of magic in the hands of Iron Heroes.

Ok someone remind me what this debate is about because appparently i"m loss. We both agree that they don't describe this as low magic. Writers dont market books when they write it. Mearls had an idea in mind and he wanted to avoid the term low magic. He didnt havea ton of references to low magic in it and then the editor ran a word replace for marketing reasons.

We agree that there is lots of magic in iron heroes thoug hdangerious.

We also agree that there is references supporting a low magic world but still offering support for normal magic.

From the previous posts, it sounded like you guys were sayng that hte system was designed for low magic and thats all I'm saying is that it wasn't.

 

[ValhallaGH]

He didnt havea ton of references to low magic in it and then the editor ran a word replace for marketing reasons.

Now you're just inventing things to support your (false) position.

We agree that there is lots of magic in iron heroes thoug hdangerious.

Assuming that those last words are "though" and "dangerous", then I think I can agree with this. There is a lot of magic in the world of Iron Heroes, though it is dangerous and almost completely out of the hands of the PCs.

We also agree that there is references supporting a low magic world but still offering support for normal magic.

No, we don't.

You claim that there are references that support normal PC magic use. I have yet to see anything that supports this postition.

We do both agree that IH supports low magic worlds.

From the previous posts, it sounded like you guys were sayng that hte system was designed for low magic and thats all I'm saying is that it wasn't.

I've already stated my position for the last time. Read that most recent post you quoted, it's the last two sentences. You seem to disagree with that position; which would be fine if you could provide some sort of evidence to support your claim or where willing to admit that you don't have evidence.

 

[DonTadow]

Now you're just inventing things to support your (false) position.

Assuming that those last words are "though" and "dangerous", then I think I can agree with this. There is a lot of magic in the world of Iron Heroes, though it is dangerous and almost completely out of the hands of the PCs.

No, we don't.

You claim that there are references that support normal PC magic use. I have yet to see anything that supports this postition.

We do both agree that IH supports low magic worlds.

I've already stated my position for the last time. Read that most recent post you quoted, it's the last two sentences. You seem to disagree with that position; which would be fine if you could provide some sort of evidence to support your claim or where willing to admit that you don't have evidence.

????
I'm making up things? This is insteresting considering we both agree (and iwatts too) that there are no references to low magic in the game, so what did I make up about my statement. If the writer did not writer it, then it is not there. If the writer has said that it's not low magic, then it isn't. I mean, I really don't know what you want. The quotes and references to where you can find how to integrate 3.5 magic is there. I would think that by now in your d and d career you'd know how to seperate fluff from crunch. Crunch explains how to do it, fluff is an example of there way of using it.

Factually there are rules for converting by the author. That pretty much sums up my position. whereas all you guys have is an interpretation, I have the book to back me up. The proof of burdan is on you. There is a chart to converting 3.5 spell casters. FInd me a reference that says specifically low magic.

 

[ValhallaGH]

The quotes and references to where you can find how to integrate 3.5 magic is there.

"Use as Villain."

As a villian? Why would I only use it as a villian? Game balance? Hmmm.... Oh!
Now, how do I make that into a PC?

You claim to have answered that last quesiton. Please, explicity explain your answer, with lots of examples; some of us are slow and need lots of examples.

there are rules for converting by the author.

Rules that the author says are only balanced when using as a villain.
I'd never let a PC play a Dread Sorcerer or any other Villain Class. Why do you insist on encouraging me to do so?

 

[Aus_Snow]

FInd me a reference that says specifically low magic.

In the sense that "low magic" is apparently being discussed in the here and now, how about direct quotes from the main Iron Heroes book:


Iron Heroes, Page 7

In the implied setting of Iron Heroes, magic is dangerous, unpredictable, and almost impossible to control. Arcane power is the province of powerful monsters, strange beings from other worlds, and deadly villains. The characters must rely on their training, clever tactics, and natural abilities to defeat their enemies.

[. . .]

Without access to reliable magic spells and powerful enchanted items, skills play a big role in defining what your character can do.


Iron Heroes, Page 8

The game mechanics reflect this factor. For instance, without magic items and spells to fall back on, you must apply your talents, skills, and feats in inventive ways to defeat your enemies.

 

[iwatt]

????
Factually there are rules for converting by the author. That pretty much sums up my position. whereas all you guys have is an interpretation, I have the book to back me up. The proof of burdan is on you. There is a chart to converting 3.5 spell casters. FInd me a reference that says specifically low magic.

I keep giving you the benefit of the doubt, and checking your statemnt for accuracy. I'm nice that way.

What chart are you talikng about?

The conversions in the IH book talk of bringing either IH rules into regular d20 (skills, skill
groups, traits, feats). It explicitly says don't use the arcanist.

The conversion in MIH talk about Importing spellcasters. The only chart in that section deals with hp conversions. Now I'll grant that the following sentence:

The spellcasting classes work best as villains

doesn't exclude the use of spellcasting classes as PCs. IMO it's a very strong reccomendation not to use them, but I'll agree it isn't 100% exclusionary. You say you can use thes conversion guidelines perfectly. VGH and myself have consistently asked for how you handle the balance issues of dealing with IH classes with access to buffing magic and the magical equipment. You have managed to ignore us every time. The way Mearles details how to include IH classes is to hit them with the nerf bat. Hit them hard. IMO, if you apply those conversions, your aren't actually playing Iron Hereos with high PC magic, you're playing High PC magic with some ported in IH rules. There's a big differnce to me. But without any more info from you, there's no way to tell.

By the way, you've evaded answering every time we've asked for proof from your point of view. Please elaborate somewhat more than just saying: "you're wrong and I'm right" without the decency of at least explaining your position. Throughout this discussion you've falsely accused different people of: (1) not reading the books, (2) misinterpreting fluff for crunch, and (3) saying that you are having bad/wrong fun.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I've been looking for some more references to support either 'side'. I have found these (hopefully of some use in further clarification) :


Mastering Iron Heroes, Page 92

[. . .] the spellcasting classes make excellent additions as villain classes. Clerics, wizards, druids, and sorcerers have the magical firepower needed to pose a threat.

[. . .]

The spellcasting classes work best as villains and powerful NPCs, particularly if they’re members of strange, alien races who have a natural affinity for the magical arts.


Iron Heroes, Page 153 (sidebar: "How is an Iron Heroes setting different?")

[. . .] in some games magic is common and easy to use — if you have enough money, you can purchase a magical sword from a local smith who has some skill with magic. In Iron Heroes, such casual use of magic is unheard of.