Iron Heroes -- my solution to the martial arts thing

[EricNoah]

Here's my first step in helping the punchers & kickers have some fun:

New Unarmed Strike Rules:
• Small and medium characters without Improved Unarmed Strike
deal 1d3 subdual per strike and draw AoOs from armed opponents (as
per normal rules).
• The Improved Unarmed Strike feat allows you to deal lethal
damage with your punches and avoid AoOs, as per the normal rules.
However, this feat also allows you to deal more damage depending on
what kinds of weapons you have proficiency in.
----->If you have proficiency in Simple Weapons, your unarmed
damage increases to 1d6.
----->If you have proficiency in "All Martial Weapons" your
unarmed damage increases to 1d8 (or you can buy a Martial Weapon
Proficiency in "Martial Unarmed Strike" to gain this amount of
damage).
----->If you wish, you can spend a feat to gain an Exotic Unarmed
Strike proficiency which pushes your damage up to 1d10, plus you can
perform a flurry of blows. [I might set it up so you can improve this even further with a feat or with more Exotic Weapon slots.]
• If you are Large, or if you have the Mighty Build trait, the
damage die goes up one "step".
• You can wear a masterwork gauntlet or masterwork brass
knuckles to gain a "masterwork bonus" to your unarmed attacks, just
as if you had a masterwork weapon.


--------

The next step, as I see it, is to go through the feat masteries and see what kind of feats would make a good martial arts chain.

And then I need to think about what I want to do about the combo of heavy armor and punching/kicking. Maybe the rule is "in heavy armor, you once again draw AoOs from your unarmed strikes as your armor keeps you from reacting quite as quickly as before" or something like that.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I like it.

You should note the possibility of using an unarmed attack as the second of a two weapon attack.

Also, I would consider putting in something about how you might add qualities to your unarmed weapons such as disarming or tripping.

 

[dalfen]

In the Monte forums i've been working with a feat mastery maybe you can use it or retool same that i did with the orginal (give the credit to Dueling Blue)

Improved Unarmed Strike[Finesse, Power]
Base Mastery: 1
Benefit: You have trained to fight with punches and kicks, which allows you to engage an armed opponent on equal terms. You are considered armed even when unarmed. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.
Also, your unarmed damage increase to 1d6. And you have to choose what style you gonna to follow hard style or soft style.
Normal: Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you make only 1d3 damage with such an attack.
Special:You can pick this feat mastery twice one for the hard style and another for the soft style.

Expanded Mastery
2 Your unarmed strikes can deal lethal damage, without needing to get the -4 penalty to your attacks.You can still doing nonlethal damage as normal.
3 Increase your unarmed damage by one die.
4 Your unarmed attacks have reach so mastery that can be considered like power weapons (hard style) or finesse weapons (soft style) (choose one) and can benefit of bonus,abilities and feats for this kind of weapons.
5 Increase your unarmed damage by one die.
6 You are infused with the spirit of your martial style. If you follow a hard style for every unarmed token you spend you make +1 damage to your unarmed attacks.If you follow a soft style for every unarmed token you spend you gain +1 bonus to your initiative.
7 Increase your unarmed damage by one die.
8 You are infused with the spirit of your martial style. If you follow a hard style and wear no armor and spend 4 unarmed tokens you gain DR1d4 that can be modify with your armor mastery feats if any.If you already have a natural DR, like the gained with the berseker class, increase the existing one by one die type.This DR dissapear at the end of the encounter.If you follow a soft style for every unarmed token you spend you gain +1 bonus to your defense.
9 Increase your unarmed damage by one die.
10 You are infused with the spirit of your martial style. If you follow a hard style for every unarmed token you spend you reduce the hardness of an object by one.If you reduce the harness to 0 with this technique it means that you've destroy the object.If you follow a soft style for every 4 unarmed tokens you spend you can make one extra unarmed attack in a round.
Unarmed token pool.(insert flavor text)
You can have a maximum of 10+ your character level. You get unarmed tokens acording to this table.
Action Tokens gained
Attacking unarmed 1/attack that hits
Channelling chi 1/move action
Channelling chi 2/standard action
Channelling chi 4/full-round action

 

[med stud]

I created a weapon master focusing at unarmed strikes as a test and he was able to deal at average 60 points per round in damage at lvl 20. I assumed that you could use two weapon fighting unarmed, not too bold IMO. He would be more efficient with weapons but from what I saw it was mostly about tokens and Power Attack anyway in the end. At least he beat up a titan in my tests (granted the titan didn't abuse his movement etc but still).

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Have any more refinements gone into these?

There's a lot of activity on Monte's boards about this subject.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Have any more refinements gone into these?

There's a lot of activity on Monte's boards about this subject.

My take on CMA (also posted on Montes board: http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm36.showMessage?topicID=231.topic)

I rewrite it here in the current version (there is always room for improvement or variation).
======================================================
Description:
You are trained in the martial arts, excelling at unarmed combat.

Prerequisite:
Finesse or Power Mastery 1, Improved Unarmed
When taking the feat, you must decide wether you chose the finesse or the power version. Depending on the version you take, different options are available.
All benefits of this feat only apply if you use an unarmed strike or weapons with the unarmed descriptor.

Benefit:
Your unarmed attacks deal 1d6 points of damage. You can deal either lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. Your unarmed strike is considered a Finesse weapon if you choose this feat as a Finesse feat, or as a Power weapon if you chose it as a Power feat.

Expanded Mastery 2:
You become proficient with all weapons with the unarmed descriptor. These weapons also take on the Finesse (if chosen as Finesse feat) or Power (if chosen as Power feat) descriptor when you wield them.


Expanded Mastery 3 (Finesse)
If you attack with a weapon with the unarmed descriptor and hit the target, you may initiate a free trip or disarm attempt that does not provoke an attack of oppertunity.
If you also have the Power version of Mastery 3, you can chose only one of the benefits each attack, not both.

Expanded Mastery 3 (Power):
f you attack with a unarmed attack, you may initiate a grapple without provoking an attack of oppertunity.
If you also have the Finesse version of Mastery 3, you can chose only one of the benefits each attack, not both.


Expanded Mastery 4:
You are considered having the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, but only when wielding weapons with the unarmed descriptor. You can make an off-hand attack when unarmed.
Alternate Take:
You are considered having the Razorfiend feat (Mastery 1), except that it applies to weapons with the unarmed descriptor, not daggers.

Expanded Mastery 5:
If you use the vertical strike or leaping strike option of the Jump skill using a weapon with the unarmed descriptor, you may chose to deal double damage instead of the standard benefits of these options. This maneuver is a bit more risky - if your Jump check does not beat a DC of 20, you fall prone and gain no benefits of these maneuvers.


Expanded Mastery 6 (Finesse):
When attacking from a prone position using a weapon with the unarmed descriptor, you suffer no attack penalty. You enjoy a +2 bonus to Jump checks.

Expanded Mastery 6 (Power):
Each round you can maintain a pin, you deal 1d12 points of damage to the pinned opponent.


Expanded Mastery 7:
Your unarmed attacks deal 1d10 points of lethal or nonlethal damage. You may deal piercing or slashing damage instead of bludgeoning damage.
If you wield a weapon with the unarmed descriptor, it deals 1d10 points of base damage or its regular damage (whichever is better).

Expanded Mastery 8:
When wielding a weapon with the unarmed descriptor, the critical range of the attacks doubles. (This stacks with the benefits of the Improved Critical Feat).


Expanded Mastery 9 (Finesse):
If your opponent misses you with a melee attack while you use a weapon with the unarmed descriptor, you can immediately make a free attack of oppertunity to trip or disarm the opponent.

Expanded Masterery 9 (Power):
When attacking with a weapon with the unarmed descriptor, you can treat the weapon as a two-handed power weapon with the cudgel descriptor.
You cannot use this benefit if you gain extra attacks due to two-weapon fighting or similar abilities.


Expanded Mastery 10 (Finesse):
When striking an opponent with a weapon with the unarmed descriptor, you can make a Tumble Check opposed by your opponents base attack check. If you succeed, you can move through his space to any space adjacent to him. This movement does not provoke attack of oppertunities and count as your regular movement per round, but is part of your attack (and costs no additional action). If you fail the check, you may not move.

Expanded Mastery 10 (Power):
Once per round, If you succesfully hit a single opponent with two attacks, you deal an additional of 2d6 + 1.5 Strength Modifier damage.


======================================================

This take doesn´t use a token pool. I feel it is difficult to come up with good token uses, if I want to avoid overlapping with existing token pools, especially with the Weapon Master.

The damage increases granted by this feat aren´t very high - that´s what weapon focus is meant for. Unarmd combat doesn´t have to cause more damage than armed combat - it should more be about "special effects" or "special moves" than anything else in my opinion.

 

[Particle_Man]

Grappling rules have more options in IH (lifting opponents and throwing them around). This might have relevance for the martial artist.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

The damage increases granted by this feat aren´t very high - that´s what weapon focus is meant for. Unarmd combat doesn´t have to cause more damage than armed combat - it should more be about "special effects" or "special moves" than anything else in my opinion.

Yeah, I agree, I think you could come up with an interesting prestige or profession class built around unarmed combat and then build a token pool into that, but as an optional token pool it would overlap with too much.

Still, I gotta say there do seem to be a lot of damage adders in there, what's the point spread on somehow who took that feat chain just for the damage adders and then something like weapon finesse, power attack, or weapon focus?

Secondary question, would it be possible to split this feat chain up the way the mounted combat feat chains are split up? Have a special effects with some damage adders chain and damage adders chain with some special effects?

I really really love your level 9 effect. Been watching a lot of anime/kung fu lately and I'm just astounded by how often people pull that move.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yeah, I agree, I think you could come up with an interesting prestige or profession class built around unarmed combat and then build a token pool into that, but as an optional token pool it would overlap with too much.

This weekend I thougt a bit about a possible token system - I granted tokens for performing succesful maneuvers (initially, bullrush, disarm, sunder and trip, later tumble/jump or grapple), and using them to improve such maneuvers. Unfortunately, this still overlaps with some of the Weapons Master abilities.

Still, I gotta say there do seem to be a lot of damage adders in there, what's the point spread on somehow who took that feat chain just for the damage adders and then something like weapon finesse, power attack, or weapon focus?

I am not sure I understand your question, but 2 points about this:
The damage related abilities do only work under certain circumstances and make it difficult to make use of the finesse or power attack abilities.
The leaping/vertical strike options usually cost iterative attacks, and most the time also negate the ability to use the finesse sneak attack damage (since you replace the listed benefits with those of the original option).
Power Attack does not work well with light attacks, and I believe it can´t be used in grapple/pin. Using it might be counteproductive for gaining the "Rend" (Power Mastery 10), since it requires multiple hits.

Secondary question, would it be possible to split this feat chain up the way the mounted combat feat chains are split up? Have a special effects with some damage adders chain and damage adders chain with some special effects?

One way might be to split in into two different chains, one "soft" (Finesse) and one "hard" (Power). That´s basically the way it already is, though I built in some overlapping points.
A further alternative might be to spilt it into Attack/Defense/Grapple chains or something like that.

I really really love your level 9 effect. Been watching a lot of anime/kung fu lately and I'm just astounded by how often people pull that move.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

A further alternative might be to spilt it into Attack/Defense/Grapple chains or something like that.

I like this one. Particularly since if you keep the actual feats within a broad range of masteries unarmed combat becomes a good secondary strategy with characters, which is the way it works out in a lot of the literature.

That way a guy who just does unarmed combat is still great, but a guy who specializes in wacking people with clubs might actually have a good side specialty in defensive martial arts, grappling attacks, or using his fists as a light weapon.

If you really wanted to build up that modular component you could also have minor feat chains and major ones. Say basic defense, attack, and grapple chains capping out at five or four, and then really exotic chains begining at no lower than four and that's where'd you'd put anti DR chains, leaping attack chains, pressure point stuff, and (if you really wanted to go hardcore) stuff like flaming fists and chi-beams.