Iron Heroes threaten my GM style of low magic items...

[Aus_Snow]

They are running with sandals. That is my point. The can do it and if they're having fun while doing it, all the better. However I try to point out they they most probably would have more fun finding a proper suited game (or lose less time house ruling).

Nope. I just disagree. Well, not just that. I've given reasons why. Round and round it goes, eh?

Well good! That means all players go the game to have fun by aiming at the same goal. Not everyone has fun aiming for the same goal. Some have fun by bashing monsters, other have fun by playing their character as good as possible according to the imagined universe's inner logic and others have fun by having their characters going through internal hardship/change.

Nope. You misread what I had posted. Therefore, what you wrote there is inapplicable.

You can be roleplaying while not playing "in character" and then I'm not sure if to you "playing in character" means mimicking the character's voice while playing and/or never taking a narrator stance.

If a person was not in character to some degree, in whatever ways, they would *not* be roleplaying, in my opinion. They might be playing some kind of wargame, for example - or something else again. Anyway, our opinions differ; I get that.

3E D&D (as I assume it to be)

Exactly.

That's the "gaming style" I'm talking about.

It's not the same way I used the term. So we differ on that too. And?

"The way they [the players] play their character varies" is not related to what I call "gaming style". Playing them "well" or not, playing them as magic loving or not or as "powergamers" or munchkin is not "playing style". Playing style is "what makes your game fun?". For most D&D players, it's "overcoming challenges while butt-kicking evil". 3E assumes that. And the "fun" part comes from both the playing stategies in order to be efficient in face of the dice gamble. Even though nobody wants to admit it for political correctness reasons, 3E is actually players vs DM (via his monsters and traps and so on). It assumes fairness to make everything fun.

How about: "As not everybody agrees with your summary of 3E D&D, 3E actually means different things to different people." That's not political correctness, just a simple fact.

"game system" is vague since it includes too many concept. It includes mechanics which in itself does not make the game. It ususally includes the setting, etc. Some "game systems" are better suited to some playing styles than others. That's what I'm repeating over and over again.

Many systems are more flexible than you seem to prefer to believe. I'd rather not repeat this over and over, either.


We've been arguing at cross-angles, or something like that. I can't see that changing any time soon, so unless you have a burning desire to tread the weary circle once, twice, however many times more, how about we don't?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Blech. All this talk about what is or is not D&D. I tried to remain neutral, but forget that!

If, when roleplaying, you open up a book that says "Dungeons and Dragons" on it, you're playing D&D.

Simple. By the way, I stopped reading a while back, but with the word count in most of the posts, I decided that noone had said what was on my mind. So, there you go. Enjoy or don't enjoy, whatever.

 

[molonel]

Molonel, good points! Where have you been?

Oh, out and about. I get tired of rules discussions, sometimes, whether crunchy or theoretical. So I take a break from here sometimes.

 

[Bastoche]

Good read Bastoche. I'm not sure if I completely agree, but certainly worth reading. And, considering I've said similar things in the past, although perhaps not taking as far as you have, I can definitely see your point.

One question though. Why GRUPS?

Well since your went there, I can use a bit terminology. GRUPS is a simulationist game. And in the history of RPGs, they are the type of games we find the most out there. D&D 3E is gamist, 1E was 1/2 gamists and 1/2 simulationists and the bad halfs to boot. 2E is pretty much purely simulationist.

 

[Bastoche]

How about: "As not everybody agrees with your summary of 3E D&D, 3E actually means different things to different people." That's not political correctness, just a simple fact.

I think it is political correctness.

Fact 1) D&D is a game
Fact 2) Monopoly is a game

The way you play monopoly is fixed by the rules of the game. Assuming there's no mistakes or holes in the rules, every player around the world is assumed to play monopoly the same way. Strategies are personnal, but the rules of the game and the turns of event (when each player play, when to roll dice etc) are universal.

It's not because D&D is an RPG that it's magically not a game anymore. There are rules to play the game and each RAW D&D games will be played in a similar fashion. Sure the stories played will be different (just like in monopoly the "car" player may not always buy the same space) but the application of the rules are to be made the same. If not, they are playing another game. You may call these games "D&D" still, but then it's not the same game. Even if you still call them D&D.

For example, in monopoly, if the players house rule that they may only build hotels and no houses, it will impact the playing strategies. They will not be playing monopoly anymore.

Some minor changes may affect cosmetically the way the games are played. For example, in monopoly, changing the names of the places does not change the game appart for cosmetics. In D&D you could call the "fireball" spell "Ball of fire" and it wouldn't change anything.

So the questions becomes "What changes are minor" and we go back to a question I asked many posts ago and never got an answer for: What is D&D? I gave one definition and it seems to some that that definition is too narrow. Give me a broader one and we'll see which breaks down.

You claim it's a fact that D&D is many things. I think a) it's false and b) "many things" is a too vague definition. Define "D&D"...

 

[iwatt]

Well since your went there, I can use a bit terminology. GRUPS is a simulationist game. And in the history of RPGs, they are the type of games we find the most out there. D&D 3E is gamist, 1E was 1/2 gamists and 1/2 simulationists and the bad halfs to boot. 2E is pretty much purely simulationist.

I think he was asking why GRUPS and not GURPS

 

[radferth]

Fun Game = Good

Not Fun Game = Bad

If D&D = Fun Game, D&D = Good

D&D = Not Fun Game, D&D = Bad

The same goes for Iron Heroes, Conan, Bob's slightly house-ruled D&D, and Dave's so-heavily-house-ruled-as-to-be-virtually-unrecognizable D&D.

If you are a DM and your players are not happy, talk to them try to figure out a way to make them more happy without messing up your campaign world. Remember, however, that some players are just whiners, and will always complain no matter what they do.

If you are a player and are unhappy that your character can't defeat monsters of a certain CR, STOP LOOKING AT THE BLASTED CRs ALL THE TIME.

 

[Bastoche]

I think he was asking why GRUPS and not GURPS

I knew that

 

[Aus_Snow]

Here we go again.

I think it is political correctness.

Nonetheless, it isn't. You thinking it so does not make it so. I am by no means a fan of political correctness, as anyone who knows me could inform you, and I've no desire nor need to go wielding it.

What is D&D? I gave one definition and it seems to some that that definition is too narrow. Give me a broader one and we'll see which breaks down.

I don't have (or want) the authority to do that. It is many things to many people, so who am I to try and lock down the definition and thereby exclude whole swathes of roleplayers?

Ack. Alright, alright, I give in. Here's one (i.e., arguably not the) definition for you: "The D&D game is a fantasy game of your imagination. It's part acting, part storytelling, part social interaction, part war game, and part dice rolling. You and your friends create characters that develop and grow with each adventure they complete." It's from the D&D 3.5 PHB, and therefore seems relevant to this non-issue.

You claim it's a fact that D&D is many things.

That's because it is. Evidence is abundant, even on this very forum (and others).

"many things" is a too vague definition.

No, it's precisely correct. Could be there's a list out there somewhere. . . ? I don't feel inclined to write one myself, but perhaps someone else has.

Define "D&D"...

See above.

 

[Odhanan]

I think it is political correctness.

*snip*

Bull. That's what you understand about D&D. Not what everyone thinks/believes. To some D&D is nothing but a game. To others it's a craft, an art, a passion or a style. It's your right to not agree. But don't treat other people with different opinions as if they were retarded.